Vector stuff

ThunderCactus · June 15th, 2015, 19:42

Looking for some advice from GBBR tuners
So the vector has crazy awesome first shot accuracy, it even impresses me that I can get single 250ft shot kills with it.
Issue is if it doesn't fully recover in temperature after the first shot, it gets a bit wonky. I'm guessing the hop rubber is just more sensitive to temp changes than it should be, since the fps stays pretty darn consistent.

The main issue is the incredible amount of cooldown it suffers, which I guess isn't much worse than any other GBBR, but is there a way to mitigate it?
If you do full auto, it'll only get through about 20 rounds before actually freezing inside. The mag will finish all 49 rounds, it just cools down so fast the internals freeze.

So what do you guys figure? Lighter bolt? Lighter oil? Ventilation?

alchemy · June 17th, 2015, 13:45

propane or CO2? Freezing inside, like you can actually see frost or severe condensation on the parts? Is it possible you're overfilling the mags and maybe this thing uses a lot of gas on each shot so by overfilling you're actually letting some liquid propellant out? That would certainly freeze...

redzaku · June 17th, 2015, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by alchemy

propane or CO2? Freezing inside, like you can actually see frost or severe condensation on the parts? Is it possible you're overfilling the mags and maybe this thing uses a lot of gas on each shot so by overfilling you're actually letting some liquid propellant out? That would certainly freeze...

how do you over fill a gas mag? when you fill it up, you are basically balancing the pressure in the magazine with the bottle of gas, and when it equalize, you can't fill it more
maybe its time you research up some more on gbb and science and should not be giving out help if you don't know a thing about it

maybe slow the rate of fire down?

Azathoth · June 17th, 2015, 16:14

Frank PM me. I have an idea and it's staying in my list of super secret tech

alchemy · June 17th, 2015, 16:37

Thats a little harsh dude... the pressure doesnt equalize immediately, and since you are liquid charging it, depending on the shape of the mag you could fill pretty high. If youve already been shooting the mag and its cool and youre filling it from a hot green gas can its completely possible you could have to much liquid in there.

ThunderCactus · June 17th, 2015, 19:03

Theres a brass tube in every gbb mag that prevents overfilling.
What about hop rubbers? How are the aftermarket ones?

alchemy · June 17th, 2015, 19:20

I didnt know that, thank you for at least having a civilized response... this is a 'discussion' forum after all, is it not? It seems strange that it cant recover after the first shot dont you think? Im curious where you say its freezing? Is it the mag or elsewhere?

ThunderCactus · June 17th, 2015, 19:33

Shot to shot accuracy is the hop rubber either being inconsistent or having temperature variations affecting consistency.
Since the first shot is always precise, it has to be the latter.
And I'm thinking it's the valve in the mag frosting up. There's nothing in the inner workings that would really cause this kind of slowdown, and the valve is where the coldest temperatures are going to be. Either less gas is being released or the internal temperature of the gun is dropping so low that it's seriously affecting the expansion rate of the gas.

alchemy · June 17th, 2015, 19:47

Right, temperature variation which causes a change in pressure, affecting fps...how hot does this thing usually shoot? Does it feel like a gas hog? Is it possible there is a poor seal between the hop up rubber and the nozzle?
as an anecdote I switched my ghk nozzle to an aluminum prowin one with a stiffer hop up rubber and the thing would not fire full auto with green gas... it literally just blew the gas out the side till I either used co2, or put the softer rubber back in...
just thinking out loud here...

ThunderCactus · June 17th, 2015, 20:51

Affecting fps only would alter range, not accuracy. The range remains the same on slow semi auto, just has inconsistent accuracy.
On full auto or fast burst fire, it only starts to lose range as it freezes up, because the fps drops to like 80fps.
Normally shoots 1.4j on .30s, probably uses a bit more gas than it really NEEDS to, but both vectors (yes, I have two; one HK and one US) get 60-65 rounds per gas fill on slow semi auto.
Seal between hop and nozzle is pretty good on both. There's very little gas being used to shoot the BB, most of the gas on GBBRs is used to cycle the bolt.

I'm thinking a lighter slide with a weaker recoil spring would probably increase gas efficiency by a lot.
The way GBBRs work, the mag valve actually stays open until the bolt cycles back far enough to hit the release. So having a faster recoil would definitely use less gas, and using less gas would reduce cooldown.

alchemy · June 17th, 2015, 21:22

Not to be argumentative, but fps must have some sort of affect on accuracy... it may be negligible at shorter ranges, but less force behind the bb will affect the way it comes out of the hop-up chnaging the spin and altering the trajectory... especially if you are getting a huge drop in fps...
anyway, it seems like youre on the right path.. Id be curious if you had a way to test/simulate your theory?

ThunderCactus · June 17th, 2015, 22:12

If fps affected accuracy, you'd see it in lower fps guns, like pistols. But my pistol shoots dead nuts accurate out to 160ft, which is the max distance it can push a .32g BB.
fps variation will affect range, since you need different hop settings for different fps, but accuracy is just how straight the hop applies the backspin.
Perfect example being I can swap my M130 for an M90 in my ptw, drops the fps by 75fps, and it still shoots dead straight but with reduced range.
You could argue that it reduced accuracy if you measured the grouping at the same maximum range, but the accuracy loss is due to the BB running too low on forward momentum and the spin destabilizing, resulting in BBs flaying in random directions at the end of the path.
So you're both right and wrong I guess?

Anyway, at the ranges I'm getting inconsistency, it's more likely a hop temperature issue. It's also a path deviation, not a flayed end path, so the issue is the hop rubber, not fps variation.
And it the fps does stay consistent when doing slow semi, but the accuracy does not.
Again, first shot accuracy is always great after letting the temperature normalize.

Maybe I should Rhop it?? lol

alchemy · June 17th, 2015, 22:23

I have no idea what an Rhop is, and yes I'm pretty n00b when it comes to airsoft guns, but looking at the gun as an overall system where all the parts have an effect on one another, when you say you need a different hop up setting depending on your fps, thats sort of what I was getting at... if your gun usually shoots 350, and the hop-up is set to see that sort of pressure, than having a sudden drop in pressure means your hop-up is now out of calibration... anyway, I'll settle for both right and wrong haha

Pressure and temperature have a direct relationship with one another though, so it could be tough to say weather this is an issue of force (pressure) or temperature affecting the material, in this case the hop-up rubber.
If you have a chono, and shoot on semi-atuo, what sort of fps drop are you getting inbetween each shot if you wait the minimum amount of time between shots?
Or if you had a high speed camera and we can see whats going on inside the gun that would be super cool.

Drakker · June 17th, 2015, 22:37

This might sound stupid or really basic... but KWA rubbers are notorious for soaking up lubricant real fast and losing accuracy really quickly when this happens. Add cold to the equation and it might be just what is happening to you. Have you tried thoroughly cleaning the hop-up rubber?

ThunderCactus · June 17th, 2015, 23:33

It's doing +-5fps between shots until the cooldown hits
The major giveaway is the inaccuracy starts at the rubber, giving me a typical spread, rather than an end path flaying due to the BB going too slow. Once you shoot enough BBs you'll be able to easily distinguish between the two, although it's a lot harder to get the BBs to flay out at the end when you're running .30s or .32s since they're so stable.

I think I've only ever applied silicone lube twice to the gun, so I doubt the rubbers swollen, but I WOULD like to look at aftermarket rubbers.... or Rhop it lol
Hop rubber generally gets cleaned after every game, when I clean the barrel.

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June 15th, 2015, 19:42	#1
ThunderCactus Not Eye Safe, Pretty Boy Maximus on the field take his picture! Trader rating Join Date: Feb 2007	Vector stuff Looking for some advice from GBBR tuners So the vector has crazy awesome first shot accuracy, it even impresses me that I can get single 250ft shot kills with it. Issue is if it doesn't fully recover in temperature after the first shot, it gets a bit wonky. I'm guessing the hop rubber is just more sensitive to temp changes than it should be, since the fps stays pretty darn consistent. The main issue is the incredible amount of cooldown it suffers, which I guess isn't much worse than any other GBBR, but is there a way to mitigate it? If you do full auto, it'll only get through about 20 rounds before actually freezing inside. The mag will finish all 49 rounds, it just cools down so fast the internals freeze. So what do you guys figure? Lighter bolt? Lighter oil? Ventilation?

June 17th, 2015, 22:37	#14
Drakker Official ASC Geomorphologist Trader rating Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Montr?al south shore, Qc	This might sound stupid or really basic... but KWA rubbers are notorious for soaking up lubricant real fast and losing accuracy really quickly when this happens. Add cold to the equation and it might be just what is happening to you. Have you tried thoroughly cleaning the hop-up rubber? __________________ Keep quiet. Sound travels faster than BBs. Québec province's master age verification representative.

June 17th, 2015, 13:45	#2
alchemy Trader rating Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Toronto	propane or CO2? Freezing inside, like you can actually see frost or severe condensation on the parts? Is it possible you're overfilling the mags and maybe this thing uses a lot of gas on each shot so by overfilling you're actually letting some liquid propellant out? That would certainly freeze...

June 17th, 2015, 16:37	#5
alchemy Trader rating Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Toronto	Thats a little harsh dude... the pressure doesnt equalize immediately, and since you are liquid charging it, depending on the shape of the mag you could fill pretty high. If youve already been shooting the mag and its cool and youre filling it from a hot green gas can its completely possible you could have to much liquid in there.

June 17th, 2015, 19:03	#6
ThunderCactus Not Eye Safe, Pretty Boy Maximus on the field take his picture! Trader rating Join Date: Feb 2007	Theres a brass tube in every gbb mag that prevents overfilling. What about hop rubbers? How are the aftermarket ones?

June 17th, 2015, 19:20	#7
alchemy Trader rating Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Toronto	I didnt know that, thank you for at least having a civilized response... this is a 'discussion' forum after all, is it not? It seems strange that it cant recover after the first shot dont you think? Im curious where you say its freezing? Is it the mag or elsewhere?

June 17th, 2015, 19:33	#8
ThunderCactus Not Eye Safe, Pretty Boy Maximus on the field take his picture! Trader rating Join Date: Feb 2007	Shot to shot accuracy is the hop rubber either being inconsistent or having temperature variations affecting consistency. Since the first shot is always precise, it has to be the latter. And I'm thinking it's the valve in the mag frosting up. There's nothing in the inner workings that would really cause this kind of slowdown, and the valve is where the coldest temperatures are going to be. Either less gas is being released or the internal temperature of the gun is dropping so low that it's seriously affecting the expansion rate of the gas.

June 17th, 2015, 19:47	#9
alchemy Trader rating Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Toronto	Right, temperature variation which causes a change in pressure, affecting fps...how hot does this thing usually shoot? Does it feel like a gas hog? Is it possible there is a poor seal between the hop up rubber and the nozzle? as an anecdote I switched my ghk nozzle to an aluminum prowin one with a stiffer hop up rubber and the thing would not fire full auto with green gas... it literally just blew the gas out the side till I either used co2, or put the softer rubber back in... just thinking out loud here...

June 17th, 2015, 20:51	#10
ThunderCactus Not Eye Safe, Pretty Boy Maximus on the field take his picture! Trader rating Join Date: Feb 2007	Affecting fps only would alter range, not accuracy. The range remains the same on slow semi auto, just has inconsistent accuracy. On full auto or fast burst fire, it only starts to lose range as it freezes up, because the fps drops to like 80fps. Normally shoots 1.4j on .30s, probably uses a bit more gas than it really NEEDS to, but both vectors (yes, I have two; one HK and one US) get 60-65 rounds per gas fill on slow semi auto. Seal between hop and nozzle is pretty good on both. There's very little gas being used to shoot the BB, most of the gas on GBBRs is used to cycle the bolt. I'm thinking a lighter slide with a weaker recoil spring would probably increase gas efficiency by a lot. The way GBBRs work, the mag valve actually stays open until the bolt cycles back far enough to hit the release. So having a faster recoil would definitely use less gas, and using less gas would reduce cooldown.

June 17th, 2015, 21:22	#11
alchemy Trader rating Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Toronto	Not to be argumentative, but fps must have some sort of affect on accuracy... it may be negligible at shorter ranges, but less force behind the bb will affect the way it comes out of the hop-up chnaging the spin and altering the trajectory... especially if you are getting a huge drop in fps... anyway, it seems like youre on the right path.. Id be curious if you had a way to test/simulate your theory?

June 17th, 2015, 22:12	#12
ThunderCactus Not Eye Safe, Pretty Boy Maximus on the field take his picture! Trader rating Join Date: Feb 2007	If fps affected accuracy, you'd see it in lower fps guns, like pistols. But my pistol shoots dead nuts accurate out to 160ft, which is the max distance it can push a .32g BB. fps variation will affect range, since you need different hop settings for different fps, but accuracy is just how straight the hop applies the backspin. Perfect example being I can swap my M130 for an M90 in my ptw, drops the fps by 75fps, and it still shoots dead straight but with reduced range. You could argue that it reduced accuracy if you measured the grouping at the same maximum range, but the accuracy loss is due to the BB running too low on forward momentum and the spin destabilizing, resulting in BBs flaying in random directions at the end of the path. So you're both right and wrong I guess? Anyway, at the ranges I'm getting inconsistency, it's more likely a hop temperature issue. It's also a path deviation, not a flayed end path, so the issue is the hop rubber, not fps variation. And it the fps does stay consistent when doing slow semi, but the accuracy does not. Again, first shot accuracy is always great after letting the temperature normalize. Maybe I should Rhop it?? lol

June 17th, 2015, 22:23	#13
alchemy Trader rating Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Toronto	I have no idea what an Rhop is, and yes I'm pretty n00b when it comes to airsoft guns, but looking at the gun as an overall system where all the parts have an effect on one another, when you say you need a different hop up setting depending on your fps, thats sort of what I was getting at... if your gun usually shoots 350, and the hop-up is set to see that sort of pressure, than having a sudden drop in pressure means your hop-up is now out of calibration... anyway, I'll settle for both right and wrong haha Pressure and temperature have a direct relationship with one another though, so it could be tough to say weather this is an issue of force (pressure) or temperature affecting the material, in this case the hop-up rubber. If you have a chono, and shoot on semi-atuo, what sort of fps drop are you getting inbetween each shot if you wait the minimum amount of time between shots? Or if you had a high speed camera and we can see whats going on inside the gun that would be super cool.

June 17th, 2015, 23:33	#15
ThunderCactus Not Eye Safe, Pretty Boy Maximus on the field take his picture! Trader rating Join Date: Feb 2007	It's doing +-5fps between shots until the cooldown hits The major giveaway is the inaccuracy starts at the rubber, giving me a typical spread, rather than an end path flaying due to the BB going too slow. Once you shoot enough BBs you'll be able to easily distinguish between the two, although it's a lot harder to get the BBs to flay out at the end when you're running .30s or .32s since they're so stable. I think I've only ever applied silicone lube twice to the gun, so I doubt the rubbers swollen, but I WOULD like to look at aftermarket rubbers.... or Rhop it lol Hop rubber generally gets cleaned after every game, when I clean the barrel.

Vector stuff

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