Improving Trigger Response?

[Rabbit]

So i've been reading about the different variables involved in improving trigger response with an AEG as well as going over some older ASC posts to get a better understanding.

Most of the points revolve around a good neo motor, mosfets and gear ratios and small customizations like SS and swiss cheesing.

I'm not exactly ready to jump into the world of mosfets or 11.1v because ROF is not what i'm looking for and further more precise work is involved.

I'd really like to maintain 390fps (give or take) on the 7.4v's I use which are 1400mah 15c constant 25c burst (buffer tube lipos)

I'm looking at some neo torque motors currently but can't really decide between 16:1 or 13:1 gear sets

From what i've ready 13:1 is usually friendlier with s100/s110s but I can't find much chatter about 16:1's.

While trying to maintain an FPS closer to 400fps what should I factor in?

[Spike]

With 16:1s you'll hardly see any difference in terms of trigger response. If you don't want to move up to 11.1s, you're kind of limiting yourself. Your 7.4s that you're currently using are also kind of underpowered for what you want from them.

Changing the motor/gears/electrical system won't change your FPS, so don't worry about that.

[Rabbit]

Originally Posted by Spike

Changing the motor/gears/electrical system won't change your FPS, so don't worry about that.

I was more concerned about the use of an m120 on 13:1's - just seems like its not recommended due to increases of wear/tear - in which the cause for my concern with loss of FPS going with any lower spring rating.

[Wrath144]

I'm using an M120 on 13:1, as long as it's built properly with decent parts there really aren't much worries. You don't want to ever limit yourself with your power input. I recently went from using an 11.1 lipo to TWO 11.1 lipos in parallel. I somewhat agree about not wanting high full auto ROF all the time, so for that reason I have two motors. One is a standard Lonex A1, and the other is whats called a Frankentorque. As you can probably guess, you build them by frankenstein-ing parts from two or more motors together. You need a really high wind (torque-y) armature, usually a Chaoli, in a neo can. I'm using a Chaoli armature dropped in a SHS high torque can. The two motors perform very similar in semi auto, but in full auto the A1 shoots about 33 rps and the Frankentorque is around 23-25. This is with no mosfet installed. I expect a couple more RPS on each motor once I get a mosfet.
With my dual battery setup (2x 11.1v 1200mah 25-50c in parallel, if you use bigger [mah/C] batteries you wouldn't need two) my M4 with the Frankentorque on SHS 13:1, M120 spring, no mosfet and solid bushings has cycle speeds very similar to a PTW. I'm not just assuming that, I've owned a PTW. Once I get the mosfet (BTC Spectre, with the microswitch trigger) I will be able to adjust my trigger pull to also feel similar to a PTW, bringing me one step closer to ultimate PTW imitation.

[lurkingknight]

whoever told you that is full of it.

It's not because that combination = more wear.. it's because the base cycle occurs faster and you have more rounds being output. This results in more rounds that of course means more wear and tear. Depending on the quality of spring, you will get roughly X number of cycles out of it before it starts to weaken. Some weaken less than others.


Neo motors are generally a bit more power hungry, you're asking a lot from a 15C 1400mah pack if that's what you want to use.


FPS and ROF are not directly linked. Meaning you could have a 10 RPS gun shooting 395 and if you drop in a 13:1 gear ratio to get whatever you get, your 395 is STILL 395 unless the gear for whatever reason has less teeth on the piston draw. That would be short stroking.

a 110 spring with full stroke is fine even to 40 rps, the problem is that spring may wear and drop the fps, OR if you overpower it with short gears, big motor and huge battery, you get what's called overspin, a stronger spring is needed to fix that, but to drop FPS back down you short stroke.

[Rabbit]

Fack. Just noticed airsoftstore has 7.4v 25C's.

I'm only reluctant to go to 11.1v to compensate for not having a mosfet and worry free for the trigger contacts.

@Wrath - your frankentorque set up is actually similar to what I was going for

[lurkingknight]

you're going to get arcing regardless of what you do, doesn't matter what battery you use.. it's the way the trigger works.

[Wrath144]

Switches are like $5 and they give you a reason to perform general maintenance/cleaning/upgrade something else. I think the trigger contact wear thing is a moot point these days.
Then again, I don't pay anybody to do my mechbox work.

[lurkingknight]

I have a client gun on the bench that stopped working the morning of game day because of a trigger switch. 30 bucks for a pico fet vs not playing or using a crappy rental gun sounds good to me.

[Wrath144]

Yeah, it wasn't meant as an argument against mosfets, more of a "don't worry about it" re: 11.1v batteries.
But you make a good point, if it's your only gun that would suck.

[venture]

Wow, surprised no one has stated the obvious. Install a MOSFET and you will get better response. You should use 11.1 or 10.8 volts, though.

Edit: sorry lurkingknight, I now see that you mentioned the poco fet.

[ThunderCactus]

Also, upgrading your motor will definitely give you more torque, and more trigger response, but as stated they will also draw more amperage.
Which is another point to get a mosfet switch. Having 20A running through your trigger contacts will increase wear a LITTLE (not as much as voltage), but it will increase heat significantly, and you could MELT the trigger switch.

[Stealth]

Without getting into what actually qualifies as "good" trigger response because it really does depend on who you ask (a relatively new player whose only prior experience has been some Sportline powered by a 8.4v NIMH vs. a veteran player used to using 10:1 ratio gears or PTWs), let me just make it very simple for you while keeping costs down, maintenance low and any sort of voodoo magic minimal.

SHS 15T piston
Lonex A1 motor
M120 spring
ZCI or SHS 13:1 gears (or Siegetek 14:1s if you're looking for bulletproof gears)
PicoSSR or MERF 3.2 FET (see below)
Turnigy Wattmeter (any serious gunsmith should own one of these at the minimum)

I had many discussions with MaciekA when he was active about 7.4V large-capacity, high discharge packs (3000mah, 50C) vs 11.1v low-capacity, low-discharge packs (1200mah, 25C) and while the larger pack will provide the required amps to efficiently power any system, it just doesn't have the larger potential difference in an 11.1v pack to provide that additional power (and subsequent torque) to get that trigger response you're looking for. Overall ROF was higher with the higher voltage pack. I'm not arguing against science and logic, but try the experiment yourself.

My current go-to high-power setup if running a buffer tube is actually a MERF 3.2 and a VFC LMT crane stock where I can put the FET in one of the battery compartments. This allows me to run a very high-speed setup if I need to (equating to excellent trigger response) while having the ability to lower the automatic ROF so I don't have to spend time at the drill press swiss cheesing a piston. Because if you're going into the trouble of wiring up a PicoSSR or any other standard FET, you may as well get the MERF. Components are much more robust as well.

If everything is assembled and tuned well, you should theoretically never have to open your mechbox until the release tooth on your piston wears out or your gearset grenades itself (Siegetek's should prevent this possibility).