Systema M4A1 Thoughts?

[Crimzzen]

Hey Guys and Ghouls,

I have a chance to pick up a new Systema PTW 2008 Max. It's got a Custom hop-up mod, FCC Multi-Part Noveske outer barrel, 509mm PDI 6.04 inner barrel, DD Omega rail, Magpul AFG, Rail covers, 10 PTW metal mags, M150 cylinder, Vision King Scope, Burris Tactical rings, 2 Tenergy 11.1 lipo batteries and all the stock parts.

What would you guys pay for something like that? I currently own a couple of G&G top techs as well as some KWA gas guns. Would I notice an improvement over them? I'm worried that dropping that much cash for no gains would be a poor decision. That being said, I'm the kind of guy that if its the best and it will last, I'm ok paying for it.

Thanks in advance!

[L473ncy]

I'm not an expert on prices for PTW's but I'd say around $1700-1800 is probably in the ballpark.

As for improvements, yes if you set the hop just right and use .30's I don't see why you wouldn't see an improvement over a stock regular AEG (even with a bunch of upgrades the PTW will in general be more consistent in performance with upgrades installed properly).

[Crimzzen]

Whats the longevity of a gun like that?

[ThunderCactus]

Changes violently from person to person lol
Requires more critical maintenance than an AEG, but it's not uncommon for them to run 4+ years straight
As for overall longevity, they pretty well can't be killed, all the components are pretty easy to replace, it's mainly just the motor and boards that go, systema's mechbox is tough. I've seen some old, beat to crap 07s still going hard.

Range and accuracy is definitely better, but you have to really want the better performance to justify the more expensive maintenance costs. The one point it's consistently much better on than AEG's is accuracy. The range can be made around the same, but it's difficult to be just as accurate on a gun to gun basis over a PTW.

Honestly there's a dozen threads on this, just search for them lol

[Crimzzen]

Yeah I've been searching. A lot of the info I find is from 2011-2012. Just looking for current thoughts as new guns are released all the time.

What sort of critical maintenance and cost is required? Currently with my AEG's I just clean the exterior and swab the inner barrel. I haven't taken them apart yet or anything. That being said I owned a smart parts ion paintball gun years back which I completely dissembled and lubed up on a monthly basis.

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Changes violently from person to person lol
Requires more critical maintenance than an AEG, but it's not uncommon for them to run 4+ years straight
As for overall longevity, they pretty well can't be killed, all the components are pretty easy to replace, it's mainly just the motor and boards that go, systema's mechbox is tough. I've seen some old, beat to crap 07s still going hard.

Range and accuracy is definitely better, but you have to really want the better performance to justify the more expensive maintenance costs. The one point it's consistently much better on than AEG's is accuracy. The range can be made around the same, but it's difficult to be just as accurate on a gun to gun basis over a PTW.

Honestly there's a dozen threads on this, just search for them lol

[R.I.T.Z]

http://airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=52547

[Crimzzen]

Thanks RITZ, I've read that one. Just looking for as much info as I can glean!

[Azathoth]

I switched from AEG to PTW last year because as a married man I don't have time to tinker and muck around with guns. I'll accept the lack of new mods and tinkering for the amount of time I save being locked into the PTW platform.

My advice:

1. Unless you know the individual rather well don't buy used PTW, unless you have time/skills/money to deal with issues.
2. If someone is selling PTW because "getting into AEG" avoid. Their is no reason someone would switch back to an AEG after PTW unless they are bad at life (IE MONEY PROBLEMS, School, divorce etc).
3. Don't buy Challenge kit unless you have time, money, and skills to assemble and tweak. you can get lemons.

Their is not much in terms of critical maintenance.

However like AEGs the cylinder should be maintained on a regular basis. Some people have thrown out 10,000 rounds a the time between 'oil changes' for that component. I have noticed a huge difference between recently cleaned and lubricated cylinders and ones that have been running without being opened for extended periods of time.

The Gearbox should be taken apart and lubricated when needed. The Canadian guru (mcguyver) does it once a year. I'm not sure how much trigger time he gets but their are cases of un-lubricated boxes going 6 years before opening. I ran a gun rather hard and when opened large twigs, sand, and other debris was in it. Your mileage may vary (YMMV) I have only opened my PTWs once.

PTWs need consistent quality ammo. Whatever that may be for your mags and hopup setting.

I own:
One 08 challenge kit and one factory 2011 make. I have a 3rd PTW I am mcguyvering together from spare systema parts.




Some people have horrible gremlins and are blowing up several PTWs before getting it 'working' properly. I'm rather sceptical that this happens. I regularly see a old timer PTW owner with problems being stupid abusive to his gun. again YMMV

[lurkingknight]

From the other side of the fence, if you put me in the same position with 2k of cash in pocket, I would not spend it on a ptw.

Does it perform better than an AEG, and if it DOES, is it 2000$ better? How can that improvement be justified vs the expense? Is it marginally better than a well tuned AEG assembled by a competent tech? is it twice the price better than that same AEG?

Let's say all said and done you pay someone 1000$ including base gun to put together a really great AEG, computerized mosfet, high rate of fire but still adjustable due to the compufet, 1.5J output on the button every shot, rhopped so it hits a pie plate at 60m every shot and on top of that, all you need to do is swab the barrel every now and then.

Is that PTW at twice the price shooting a pie plate at 120m at 1.5J? that's impossible. Okay, so how about half the pie plate at 60m? that's possible, though I doubt even an AEG can do that. Slower rate of fire, but maybe more realistic if that's what you want.

That's a lot of money, and you see guys putting MORE money in to try to get them to shoot better... how much better? You're limited by quality of BB and weather conditions and a 1.5J limitation in most places. You can only get a projectile out so far before it falls to the ground or runs out of forward velocity.

In the end though, airsoft is fun and all about toys, spend what ever you want if you find value in what you're spending on it. If you need a ptw to have fun, by all means spend the money to have fun, that's what we're all here for.

[L473ncy]

Being a casual member of "Team PTW" and handling a couple of PTW's I'm hooked. That said because I don't have the money to purchase one at the moment I'm stuck on AEG's. Although I might just grab a CTW in the mean time depending on my access to their line of guns.

What ThunderCactus says is true. You can get a couple of well tuned AEG's to sing like a choir of angels but PTW upgrades if done by a competent tech are quite consistent while those AEG's have the potential to be meh-ish and/or demon guns (I'm lucky that my G&P SOPMOD is a meh-ish gun with upgrades although I kind of wish I had one that could sing like a choir of angels).

It definitely doesn't shoot $2000 better than a regular AEG but at the same time does a $440K Aventador drive $340K better than a $100K GTR? There's always a price premium for top of the line stuff.

[lurkingknight]

don't need 440k to enjoy a car on a race track. I wouldn't call it top of the line, I would call it a different market and customer demographic.

I've seen posts of 2000+$ guns needing work out of the box and the fit and finish is terrible, if you handed me keys to a 440k car and the body panels didn't even line up the same way on one side of the car vs the other and call it premium top of the line, I'd hand you the keys back.

[Azathoth]

Originally Posted by lurkingknight

don't need 440k to enjoy a car on a race track. I wouldn't call it top of the line, I would call it a different market and customer demographic.

I've seen posts of 2000+$ guns needing work out of the box and the fit and finish is terrible, if you handed me keys to a 440k car and the body panels didn't even line up the same way on one side of the car vs the other and call it premium top of the line, I'd hand you the keys back.

For a new guy or an invested player your mags, batteries and gun bling is going to cost you the about the same between the two platforms. The TW is more expensive than a AEG mag unless you are a good shopper or a DIY guy. you can get free TW mags from guys who don't want to carry the heavy metal mags. Tossed into the garbage all the time just add guts of your choice.

A quality finish VFC is what about 600? add gun tech work and some basic upgrade like barrel/rubber you're looking at 700+labour?

My spare parts PTW has cost me to date.
~$50. Upper / lower receiver, complete hopup, outer barrel, barrel nut
~$300, Gearbox with all three boards
~$250 7511 MOTOR BNIB
~$30 Grip
~$60 Body pins, faux trigger pins, Bolt stop etc

I need a buffer tube and stock and I already have spare cylinders but King arms cylinders can be had for <100. All in, about the same cost as a modified VFC

I should still do the motor mod, but aside from some assembly time i'm G2G with a 3rd TW.

I can tell you already that the fit and finish on my spare part special is equal to any other factory PTW, and I have several available to me to compare.

Getting deals like that takes time and patience. The number of spare PTW parts available is tiny compared to AEGs but it can be done. It really isnt much different than building yourself a custom AEG from a pile of quality parts.


You are right, it is a platform and sometimes mindset that gets people into the TW platform.

[lurkingknight]

what are you paying this guy and how long does he have it for? 700 in labor really?

[ThunderCactus]

Well some new guys think old guys like us are fucking retarded for dropping $600 on a G&P and throwing $500 of upgrades in it when you can get an airsoft gun for just $120

So its really just class warfare lol
I like my super expensive gun that performs 10-15% better for 3x the price and that's just how it is.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Well some new guys think old guys like us are fucking retarded for dropping $600 on a G&P and throwing $500 of upgrades in it when you can get an airsoft gun for just $120

So its really just class warfare lol
I like my super expensive gun that performs 10-15% better for 3x the price and that's just how it is.

Lol, after being in the hobby for more that 20yrs I came to the conclusion a while ago no matter what we use its a money pit, whether its GBBR, classic air, AEG, PTW ALL of them are money pit especially when you start pimpin out your toys. I remember when HOLOSIGHT are the shit we went out and purchased a $500 RS sights for our riced up Marui. so in the end its up to the individual to limit their own spending because no matter what they will end up spending more no matter how dicipline you are. PTW are great when they work I've owned their gen1 to their latest Evolution and each one of them have issues, I turned to Tackleberry to make me a $4K PTW which lasted a lot longer than the OEM but eventually it failed too. we play with toys, toys do break and quite often, the value factor for me is how much joy I can get out of it before I have to tossed it out