A build

[Nozomori]

Redacted

[wind_comm]

jeebus, that's not asking for much, is it?
you probably want to hit up maciek, lurkingknight or anybody else brave enough to poke there heads up. (if either one of the two Stealths doesn't want to do it)

you're probably gonna want a MUCH bigger battery, definitely a new piston head, and maybe a stronger spring. don't know how the MERF will hold up either.

[wind_comm]

yikes, that's no way to build a DSG, let alone a normal gearbox.

I've been thoroughly surprised by the MERF (in a good way) when I got one, so I'd love to see it pushed to the limit by a DSG.

are you married to the MOE stock, or would you mind using something like a stubby stock? you can fit a rightly powerful battery in one of those, moreso if you hack it up a little.

yeah, I noticed the spacer after I posted, but something stronger would probably still be okay to give you a little wiggle room.

[lurkingknight]

you will need a bigger battery. If not 11v, you want higher discharge and mah 7.4. Most guys who do these builds can't even find a spot for the battery, and just end up strapping it on outside the gun in a mag pouch on the stock. There aren't any nunchuck batteries that will provide the power you need.

While the battery you have will pull your dsged 130 spring, it's not going to do it at the best rof, in fact, you can probably beat that rof with a standard single short stroke setup and a big battery and a 13:1 gearset. DSG to me is a go big or don't do it at all sort of thing. There's no point in doing a DSG if you don't want under 45rps. Not to mention that you lose semi auto because you're going to get 2 round burst out of it more often than not in semi.

The lonex POM piston head gets rave reviews about it's lightweightedness. If you've got a lonex red, you definitely want to swiss cheeze it to drop some weight... lonex red be a fat bastard.


Why do you want a DSG gun in the first place? what's your objective? anything over 30rps is silly, it's a fun silly, but imo it ends up being a waste more than anything.

[wind_comm]

you can actually keep semi-auto with a reprofiled cutoff and stronger spring. (maekii mentions it somewhere...the hair trigger video gives you a good look at it) a chimera might also do the trick.

I agree with lurkingknight, if you're gonna build a DSG, might as well go balls out. it's not like you're saving money anyway >_> (sigh...if only Calgary's indoor rules allowed full auto)

are you using VFC bushings or bearings? the bushings will totally handle it fine (they're some of my favourites actually), but you might wanna pick up some ceramics if not.

[MaciekA]

Hey Nozomori, I got your message through John... I am having the definition of a busy summer and definitely don't have time for a project like this.

I can tell you that whoever does do this project, unless they are a DSG expert, is basically going to have to be married to the gun for a while if you want it done right. Unless you are having someone build this up from a preset familiar parts list they have already banged out a few times on a few builds, this won't like taking your Fairlady to the shop for a single turbo upgrade so much as taking your prized horse to race camp for a whole summer, if you get my drift.

I agree with throwing more power at this build, partially because DSG gearboxes are intensely power hungry, but also because on a DSG setup the fun will be over much sooner with a buffer tube battery.

One thing about guns at the extreme range of performance is that most pragmatic builds begin to sacrifice some realism or tacticoolness for performance considerations. My advice is to get that nice 416 stubby stock that G&P makes. Fits a 6000mAh LiPo with room to spare for computers n' stuff.

Finally, I'm not sure where you're located but 340fps is pretty suspiciously in the indoor range of power and I think most indoor places will scoff at the idea of someone waltzing around with a firehose north of 45fps.. Speaking from experience, you will be much happier building a powerful setup that fires 380 to 400fps at around 30rps and gaming that mostly outdoors. At that rate of fire, people will still come and talk guns with you, you'll make friends, you'll have ridiculous trigger response at semi-auto, and you will be within a wear and tear profile that is well-understood by many people. Something to think about.

[Azathoth]

+1 to Maciek statement.

I dunno what you want from this build but with DSG it's go hard or go home. Your battery is horridly underpowered for a DSG setup. You need to be looking at 2000+ mah with C values 30+.

I suspect you are not going get the performance you are asking for from a VFC motor.

This build is not going to be done "fast" or on a timeline you would be happy with. I dont think you can pay me enough to truly come our of retirement to build a DSG gun. And as far as I'm aware MaciekA, Thundercactus, Amos, Stealth are pretty much the only other guys who have actively worked on DSG or high energy in Canada that I am aware of.

[ThunderCactus]

I'd take a crack at a DSG just to say I've done it
Although I have a big issue working with someone else's parts list. I'll only use parts that I'm comfortable will do the job.
Unfortunately I won't be able to touch a project like this until september =/

[Stealth]

Steve here, I'm going to chime in. Don't take this as a dissuasion from the project, I'm merely giving my experience.
I mean, we SELL DSG stuff, you'd think we'd try to push it more. Anyway...

There's a few reasons why DSG isn't wildly popular:
1) It's not very practical - I know this is an over-arching statement but I don't think I've been in a game situation where I needed that sheer volume of ammo. Most indoor places are semi-only, and outdoors you're going to be outranged/outgunned (read #2). UNLESS you isolate your variables, and tune your barrel setup, etc. You'll run out of ammo VERY quickly. Yes I understand it's a novel idea to run around with a tiny DSG gun and literally put up a WALL of ammo every time you pull the trigger but it's a very unique playing style.
2) It's tricky - a lot of considerations come into play once you push past 40rps. Tappet plate doesn't retract fast enough, BBs have trouble feeding from magazines, pistons give up, double-shooting in semi unless you use an AB FET but even then you might run into trouble, too much gearbox vibration for consistency/accuracy/repeatability, etc.
3) The battery solution that you have to run isn't going to be aesthetically pleasing (relative to a thin buffer tube battery).
4) At any given game, <5% of players are even anywhere CLOSE to 30-35rps.

I'm also off until July and backlogged until August.

[coach]

Originally Posted by Nozomori

My target FPS is 340 and the spring spacer should give me back a decent amount of lost power. Considering my tightbore and a very good airseal, I think the M140 might give me my target FPS.

Is it just me or does the target FPS seem low for an M140 spring and "good" air seal?

[lurkingknight]

that is correct fps for a dsg gear running a 130 spring.

A dsg is 2 cycles of the piston per 360 degree rotation, it doesn't have as many teeth on the sector, therefore you are running essentially a short stroke setup that doesn't pull the piston all the way back for 15 teeth. More like 8 teeth.

[Kos-Mos]

Well, I will chime in too.

I am NOT confident enough to build a DSG, especially with parts pre-bought.
However, I built some 30-35rps guns with "standard" AEG parts, and I think in you situation that would be a better and easier option than DSG.

Keep in mind, 30rps is insanely fast. I don't know if you have tried a fast gun or what is your standard for comparison, but past 25rps the gun usually acts more like a shotgun than a rifle.
Especially since you plan to run a V2-based gun and already think about lowering the RPS with the FET.

A simple short-stroke piston with a slightly harder spring, good quality STANDARD ratio gears and a rewound custom neodym motor (any LONEX would be a good start, but I really liked the JG blues for this purpose) + a FET/controller and a good quality 11.1v LiPo 5000+.

In the long run, it would be sturdier, more efficient, easier to maintenance and cheaper to fix when it breaks (and it will in both cases).

You also have to think that you will need LOTS of lowcaps. Mids don't feed properly and forget about highs.

[ThunderCactus]

Well to be very specific, the G&P piston head is the most likely cause of failure there. They don't call it "explosive" for nothing lol
In it's stead I HIGHLY recommend an ARS piston head, they are the shit.

But going on your description of what you want your gun to do, are you SURE an AEG is the best course?
The single most difficult thing to do with an AEG is to give it good accuracy on full auto, and that's inherent to all tappet plate based mechboxes. It's just not a high efficiency system. High ROF and decent performance at 120ft should be attainable, but don't expect this thing to unleash a hailstorm into a 1ft circle at 240ft.

But there is a platform that fills every requirement, and isn't a PTW lol
Polarstar!
High ROF, any FPS, extremely reliable, and best of all; short trigger pull!
The drop in mechbox for your DSG, after tuning and tweaking, especially after the gundoc bill, is gonna be close to what you'd pay for a P* drop in kit anyway

But I will warn you, there's 2 HUGE reasons 90% of people won't run high ROF (above 1500rpm)
1) completely unrealistic.
2) it scraps barrels like nobody's business. I've gone through 4 barrels on my 1500rpm 249, and King's P* has also gone through a barrel already.
If you're making a high ROF platform, it absolutely needs a widebore barrel

[Stealth]

John here

Here's my braindump for something like this:

Don't touch the nozzle and tappet plate if you have good air seal. Keep those parts. VFC ain't that bad.

Check airseal before attempting anything else. I assume your prommy hop up stuff is all new, so replace one part, chrony, and replace another. Keep doing this until you get exactly the same FPS and a deviation of less than 5FPS. Be extremely cautious of feeding issues. There's no point attempting DSG if you can't even get a SSG to feed properly.

Shimming will be crucial. Some mechboxes require modifications to fit Siegetek gears, but I don't think VFC boxes will need it. Bevel-pinion method for shimming. Moe grips are larger than normal, so shove something inside so the motor stays where it is supposed to.

Take some high grit sandpaper and sand all the piston rails and tappet rails. It must be perfectly smooth and offer zero resistance to the piston. Test fit all moving parts.

Lighten the piston by swiss cheesing it. You also need to dremel off unnecessary teeth.

Make sure the piston doesn't get stuck inside the spring guide spacer.

AoE correction is a given.

ARL needs to be modified.

Before assembling the upper half, test and listen to how the gears sound. I've started using a watt meter to quantify the quality of my shimming. We just got a bunch from HobbyKing and they're a must-have tool for any gun doc.

Reassemble, but use the weakest battery you can find. Make sure your air seal is still good, and you're properly feeding every single round. If it jams, your piston's done. Slowly ramp up your ROF on the MERF as you go. Monitor current draw using the watt meter.

[lurkingknight]

I'm not sure what other guys are doing, but in ottawa pretty much anything over 25 rps is unconventional. There's maybe 3 or 4 people here that have reliable guns shooting over 30. Even at that point though, both my 30+ers are down tuned normally to about 18rps to play.

30 is usually reserved for the guys who don't feel their hits.