Guarder Enhanced Loading Muzzle for TM G17: An In-depth Review

[mmmken]

Originally Posted by TANNER

Add another one to the pile, broke within the first mag after I installed a few days ago. As you can see half of it got stuck in the BBH, took me a while to get that out.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

I just wanted to chime in that I had the exact same failure about 2 or 3 shots after installing the same Guarder muzzle (from Airsoft Parts). Not cool.

Originally Posted by e-luder

Yeah i stopped using these muzzles. I broke 5 in a month! The Shooter's Desing POM or the Airsoft Surgeon are much stronger.

'nuff said.

[shootersaber]

I think the size of guarder one is worry. May be bigger than original. I think the original one is the best. Shooter design I try one ,but not good.

[MaciekA]

My review:



Happened in the first 2 shots.

[Strelok]

Sure is enhanced!

Its got an advanced 'automatic splitting' feature it seems.

[m102404]

LOL....when I saw the thread title I thought, "how could anyone give those a positive review...".

[Qlong]

15 shots. BEAT THAT!

[Disco_Dante]

[QUOTE=Qlong;1765324]15 shots. BEAT THAT!


I think GSK88 managed to do it first shot!

[Caelum]

I'm amazed how in depth this review is!! If each picture is worth a thousand words, then you guys have written an amazing 4000 word review!
I must say it is very impressive how dedicated each of you are to identifying the problem.

All kidding aside, what is actually causing this to happen? I haven't had to replace my stock nozzle yet, so I have not needed to buy this nozzle, so I have a few questions for the contributors.

Compared to the stock nozzles, how do these compare in size (length, width, thickness of plastic, circumference)? Does anyone have a pair of calipers laying around?

Now, I'm fairly new to the G17, but what part inside the gun would make each of these nozzles break in nearly the same place?
-Is the problem related to the bbu?

-Does part of the nozzle catch as the slide moves?
-Could this issue be fixed by sanding down part of the nozzle, if indeed it is catching?

-Is it a combination of the gas pressure, and the cooling of the plastic as rapid shots are released? In which case, it is just poor quality plastic. (Edit: and a bad case of false advertising)
-Were you shooting as fast as you could? Did you let the magazines cool before shooting? (Edit:meant to say warm up)

For those who have broken these, at what point in the cycling of the slide did the nozzle break?

[.Zo]

I put one in my g18... When I get it back together we shall see how long until it breaks.

[TANNER]

Originally Posted by .Zo

I put one in my g18... When I get it back together we shall see how long until it breaks.

If were taking bets im going with 6 shots.

[MaciekA]

Just FYI, mine broke in the Glock 26 I got from MilanWG, which itself had a muzzle that cracked at the tiny screw after some gaming abuse. I was really hoping for some super ultra enhanced whatever awesomeness from this Guarder muzzle. I was so pleased when it exploded and vented gas after the second shot.

It *may* have actually been the first shot that did the deed, but after the second it was done for.

Kidding aside, being generally clueless about pistol maintenance it gives me a sense of relief to know this part is breaking for everyone else. I was wondering if I had done something stupid.

[e-luder]

Compared to the stock nozzles, how do these compare in size (length, width, thickness of plastic, circumference)? Does anyone have a pair of calipers laying around?

I think the Guarder one is a bit thicker and has a smaller circumference. Judging from the fitment on the stock piston head, it's a bit tight. I think Guarder thought it a good idea for them to actually try and create a perfet seal for us.

The problem is, the piston fitment is a proponent as to why that loading muzzle breaks....

I ***think*** the cause of this is the ridge circled in the Qlong's pic:


That ridge is what slams unto the BBU:


When that happens, the force of BBU will be brunted by that ridge and weaken the loading muzzle. If you couple that with the gas pressure coming from within the loading muzzle, that is a recipe for disaster. As some of you already experienced.

That ridge actually prevents the function of the loading muzzle spring altogether because the ridge will slam against the BBU before the spring has time to recoil and push the loading muzzle back to battery. This means that there isn't actually anything there to help brace the BBU's impact on the loading muzzle. Thus, the muzzle breaks.

I think that the loading muzzle spring is too weak. As you can tell from the pic, that loading muzzle is too far out. the piston head is actually showing.

If you look at the previous pictures posted, ALL of them have that crack begin (...or end???) right where that ridge is....

The other thing i think is that the fitting of the piston head is actually too tight...
Which is a problem unto itself if the Guarder muzzle does not have the same tolerance as the Marui one.

-Does part of the nozzle catch as the slide moves?
-Could this issue be fixed by sanding down part of the nozzle, if indeed it is catching?

The loading muzzle is held by the hop up bucking until the loading muzzle's spring can overcome the force of the slide stroke. Or until the slide has travelled far enough so that it pulls the loading muzzle from the bucking.

No, you don't want to sand any part of your loading muzzle. You will weaken its structural integrity even further depending on where you sand.

-Is it a combination of the gas pressure, and the cooling of the plastic as rapid shots are released? In which case, it is just poor quality plastic.

It's advertised as an "enhanced polymer plastic". You see the results above. I'll let you be the judge of that. lol.

-Were you shooting as fast as you could? Did you let the magazines cool before shooting?

Mine only breaks on a specific Glock that I use that set up in. It's kitted and customized with parts that are not even neccessary to have on the gun.

But in theory, if the magazine is cold, it should have a lesser impact on the loading muzzle. Remember that air molecules move slower in colder temperatures.

The warm days is what you have to watch out for....


To be fair, this loading muzzle isn't half as bad as the other ones on the market. lol. They fit much better than some of the crappier brand muzzles out there....

There are several fixes for this issue. The one that I modded has lasted me more than 6 months so far on the Glock that keeps breaking them. lol...

[e-luder]

I forgot to mention about my other hypothesis:

The cause can also be that the loading muzzle is actually being forced to DOWN by the bucking when it enters or exits the hop up unit. This would explain why the muzzle cracks in such a way.

Why this happens has something to do with the slide and BBU such that the BBU is actually too far sunken in to the slide. At which point the loading muzzle is forced into the hop up chamber and bends. If you keep repeating this process, It stresses the loading muzzle to a point of breakage.

I've not yet investigated this though. so I can't say for sure that it is the root cause. I'm hoping it is because the fix would be soooo easy...

[Caelum]

Not sure how to properly format quotes,

"But in theory, if the magazine is cold, it should have a lesser impact on the loading muzzle. Remember that air molecules move slower in colder temperatures."
-But if the gas is not given a chance to warm to room temp/the gun is shot too quickly, the gas may cool the nozzle enough to make it extra brittle. I do think this is unlikely.

If part of the problem might be the piston head, then would using a smaller on (I think I heard AIP piston heads are smaller) in place of the stock one work?

Or maybe using a stronger nozzle return spring: http://www.wgcshop.com/wgc2008/main/...id=116&cat=323
or just doubling the spring up with a pack of these: http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/aip-loadi...i-g17-gbb.html

I was going to order one or two of the nozzles, and see what I could come up with, then I noticed something on WGC. There are two different Guarder nozzles for the G17:
http://www.wgcshop.com/wgc2008/main/...id=116&cat=652
and
http://www.wgcshop.com/wgc2008/main/...id=116&cat=652

Just looking at the pictures, it looks like there is at least one difference. In the photo of the matte finished nozzle, there is a pin or molding mark on the side of the nozzle. Perhaps guarder changed the way these are manufactured, resulting in a weaker/ inaccurate design? Although I can't be sure of any differences, aside from the 3$ difference in price.

Eluder, what did you do the keep the nozzle from breaking in that glock?

[mmmken]

Has anyone considered the simple idea that we could just be breaking these nozzles ourselves? Perhaps the bottom of the nozzle is slightly off spec and bigger, causing it to make hard contact with the magazine every time you slam it in. This is a pretty common problem with GBB's (particularly on old KSC M11's and MP9's).

Perhaps if someone has a spare Guarder nozzle, they could test it by only inserting a magazine in when the slide is locked back?