Almost time for FUN!

[THe_Silencer]

Originally Posted by kalnaren

TL;DR: FPS means jack shit. No reason you can't game out doors on <350 FPS

I feel that most of your statement is wrong. More FPS doesn't mean a better/more accurate gun but it does MEAN SHIT, ESPECIALLY outdoors. There's very much an appreciable difference between an aeg shooting 250-300 FPS to one shooting 350+FPS. Namely that the BBs shot from the hotter shooting aeg will travel at a FASTER velocity. This may mean diddly squat to those elite airsofters with their sub 300 FPS aegs, but to other players, giving your opponent less time to react to your projectiles is a much appreciated advantage. Keep in mind that unlike a real firearm, you can totally see the projectiles coming at you and you can potentially dodge them.

Having an accurate gun will only help up to a certain point. If the FPS is too low it will be very difficult to hit targets at longer distances since they're given ample time to react. Now I'm not advocating that all AEGs must shoot close to the field limit to be competitive, but many of the advocates of low FPS (low 300 or less) guns for outdoor use always leave the part out about how much noticeably slower the BBs will travel. Yes skill will certainly trump FPS but if you're running an sub 300 FPS AEG against an equally skilled opponent with a much hotter gun, you are at a DISADVANTAGE and will have less time to react. I know some players will disagree but this is based on my observations. Telling newbs that FPS makes no difference at all outdoors is detrimental to their playing experience once they find out that their opponents can matrix dodge most of their shots.

TL;DR: FPS is not the be all end all but it DOES MEAN SHIT, ESPECIALLY OUTDOORS.

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by THe_Silencer

I feel that most of your statement is wrong. More FPS doesn't mean a better/more accurate gun but it does MEAN SHIT, ESPECIALLY outdoors. There's very much an appreciable difference between an aeg shooting 250-300 FPS to one shooting 350+FPS. Namely that the BBs shot from the hotter shooting aeg will travel at a FASTER velocity. This may mean diddly squat to those elite airsofters with their sub 300 FPS aegs, but to other players, giving your opponent less time to react to your projectiles is a much appreciated advantage. Keep in mind that unlike a real firearm, you can totally see the projectiles coming at you and you can potentially dodge them.

Having an accurate gun will only help up to a certain point. If the FPS is too low it will be very difficult to hit targets at longer distances since they're given ample time to react. Now I'm not advocating that all AEGs must shoot close to the field limit to be competitive, but many of the advocates of low FPS (low 300 or less) guns for outdoor use always leave the part out about how much noticeably slower the BBs will travel. Yes skill will certainly trump FPS but if you're running an sub 300 FPS AEG against an equally skilled opponent, you are at a DISADVANTAGE and will have less time to react. I know some players will disagree but this is based on my observations. Telling newbs that FPS makes no difference at all outdoors is detrimental to their playing experience once they find out that their opponents can matrix dodge most of their shots.

TL;DR: FPS is not the be all end all but it DOES MEAN SHIT, ESPECIALLY OUTDOORS.

I'm usually one of the naysayers about noobs trying to achieve higher fps, but this is a really convincing and well-argued post... Good enough I think to have me shift my position on the matter.

To be clear, your position is that all other things completely equal (including properly tuned hopup unit, player skill, etc), the identical twin that has the faster-travelling projectiles will likely win. I agree.

Let's be honest here guys, advocating frequent spring-swaps to newbies is madness. The prices of guns are falling anyway. The solution is to have various guns for various purposes.

This is the right way to do it:

1) Buy an AEG, downgrade to 350. You can play everywhere.
2) When you decide you're hardcore, have a full costume of multicam with a Sharpie stuffed into your MOLLE -- whichever comes first really -- then buy your second AEG, your outdoor one.

Don't waste time with the marginal solutions.

[MaciekA]

If it helps convince the OP that just sticking to one initial 350fps setup and then later get a second outdoor gun, I'll add the following:

The KA M4 is a bit of a hassle to get open and assembled again, especially over and over when you're tuning it or making mistakes (I've seen the wiring chewed up, the dust cover handle get snapped, etc, all during regular maintenance on this gun). It's best to just downgrade it once, stabilize it for play and leave it be until your next maintenance window (or a problem comes up).

[kalnaren]

Originally Posted by THe_Silencer

I feel that most of your statement is wrong. More FPS doesn't mean a better/more accurate gun but it does MEAN SHIT, ESPECIALLY outdoors. There's very much an appreciable difference between an aeg shooting 250-300 FPS to one shooting 350+FPS. Namely that the BBs shot from the hotter shooting aeg will travel at a FASTER velocity. This may mean diddly squat to those elite airsofters with their sub 300 FPS aegs, but to other players, giving your opponent less time to react to your projectiles is a much appreciated advantage. Keep in mind that unlike a real firearm, you can totally see the projectiles coming at you and you can potentially dodge them.

So what your saying is.. upgrade the gun and not the player.

Having an accurate gun will only help up to a certain point. If the FPS is too low it will be very difficult to hit targets at longer distances since they're given ample time to react. Now I'm not advocating that all AEGs must shoot close to the field limit to be competitive, but many of the advocates of low FPS (low 300 or less) guns for outdoor use always leave the part out about how much noticeably slower the BBs will travel. Yes skill will certainly trump FPS but if you're running an sub 300 FPS AEG against an equally skilled opponent with a much hotter gun, you are at a DISADVANTAGE and will have less time to react. I know some players will disagree but this is based on my observations. Telling newbs that FPS makes no difference at all outdoors is detrimental to their playing experience once they find out that their opponents can matrix dodge most of their shots.

TL;DR: FPS is not the be all end all but it DOES MEAN SHIT, ESPECIALLY OUTDOORS.

Play with a stock gun first. A n00b playing with a hot gun will gain absolutely zero appreciation for the upgrades in the gun, and will be totally fucked if they ever have to play with a <350 AEG.

TONS of people play fine with stock TM and CA guns. You just need to learn to MOVE and PLAY properly.

Out of effective range? Get closer. Problem solved. If people are dodging your shots you're too far away. Doesn't matter if the gun is shooting 300 or 400.

You'll also notice most people who run hot guns shoot heavier ammo, dropping the FPS to the 300-350 range.. totally nullifying the "get the BB to the target faster" effect you describe. More muzzle energy means you can shoot heavier ammo more consistently, and thus increase your effective range that way. I don't know anyone who fields a 400 FPS gun using 0.20g BBs. And again I return to what I said earlier -if you're outside your effective range, move closer. Relying on FPS to be competitive is just a bad idea.

[ThunderCactus]

I totally back using a 300-350fps gun for beginners. You can use it inside and out, and FPS really doesn't make a big difference in range and accuracy. It does however make a big difference in safety

I've owned, used, and seen many <360fps AEG's outrange 470fps sniper rifles.
How?
Proper compression, high quality hop rubber matched to FPS range, proper BB weight for FPS.
Infact, I've made a stock tokyo marui P90 shoots accurately out to 200 feet at it's stock 300fps
All I did was regrease the mechbox, ensure proper compression, and the only upgrade I put in was a clear guarder hop rubber.

That being said, you don't know what you're rifle does until you field it. And you have to really KNOW what it does. Don't just take it to one game and throw $400 of upgrades into it. Do research and ask around, figure out what you need to upgrade first.
The best upgrade you can do to ANY gun is a simple $15 hop rubber, and it's one of the most important upgrades.

[Spawn28]

/\/\+1 and get the gearbox properly shimmed and greased and you should be good to go

[THe_Silencer]

Originally Posted by kalnaren

So what your saying is.. upgrade the gun and not the player.

No. Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said that guns shooting at a higher FPS give the player an advantage. Nowhere in my post did I say
that player skill was irrelevant nor did I advocate against improving one's skill.
In fact I said "skill will certainly trump FPS". You on the other hand stated in bold that:"FPS means jack shit" which is just wrong and deleterious to any new players seeking accurate advice. Refer to my previous post for my explanation.

Originally Posted by kalnaren

Play with a stock gun first. A n00b playing with a hot gun will gain absolutely zero appreciation for the upgrades in the gun, and will be totally fucked if they ever have to play with a <350 AEG.

If FPS means "jack shit", why would it matter what FPS your first aeg shot at so long as it's in field limits? If a new player's aeg shot less than 350 FPS, why would they be fucked if the velocity is irrelvant like you stated? You just contradicted your main point here. I do agree that 350 FPS is generally the sweet spot if you're planning on using an aeg for both indoors and outdoors.

Originally Posted by kalnaren

TONS of people play fine with stock TM and CA guns. You just need to learn to MOVE and PLAY properly.

I know. I played with stock guns as well. I never claimed you can't. You don't need to be giving me airsoft tactics. I myself will use a gun in it's stock form if it's from a decent company like VFC or KA. On such guns I will play them stock until the parts break and replace them as needed. On certain Chinese guns I will usually upgrade the piston, compression parts, wiring and possibly motor because they're so damn awful, not necessarily to achieve a higher FPS but mainly to improve compression and accuracy.

Originally Posted by kalnaren

Out of effective range? Get closer. Problem solved.

Easy solution in theory. In practice it's not always so easy to solve. I guess if you're an amazing player it should never be an issue.

Originally Posted by kalnaren

If people are dodging your shots you're too far away.

Not entirely true. You can be in range but if your opponent is aware of where you are, shooting at a lower FPS will give him more time to react, take cover, and retaliate. Hence why FPS DOES matter! Though I never said it will make you a better player.

Originally Posted by kalnaren

Doesn't matter if the gun is shooting 300 or 400.

It does. Objects travelling at a higher velocity are harder to dodge. This FACT is easy to observe with the human eye since a BB travelling 400 FPS moves noticeable faster than one travelling 100 FPS slower. You fail to elaborate on how this doesn't matter. Quoting player skill does not negate this fact.

@Thundecactus: I'm well aware of airsoft guns that shoot at lower FPS that are incredibly accurate so I hope that no one with lower FPS guns think that I'm ragging on their guns. I also run a guarder clear on my P90 and it outranges aegs with longer barrels and hotter springs, though the damn thing seems to have fused with the hopup and barrel so it seems like its impossible to remove.

My point is that Kal's claim that FPS has NO impact on an AEG's performance is misinformed and wrong. No amount of player skill or any other X factor will change this.

[ThunderCactus]

It does have an impact. But it's less of an impact than most people think, and in a different way than you think.

A 350fps gun using .25s, and a 400fps gun using .30s both have a relative velocity of 320-330fps. The BB doesn't actually get to the target faster, it just goes further and is less affected by wind and foliage.

Proper compression of your mechbox, your hop rubber, and the consistency (not diameter) of your barrel affects performance more than your FPS alone

[kalnaren]

As far as a new guy should be concerned, FPS means jack shit. It should absolutely be the LAST factor considered when buying a gun, and in no small part because of what TC outlined above -most people don't properly understand the relationship between energy, BB weight, and range (say nothing of component quality). A lot of experienced players don't get it, newbies even less so. Thinking you need a high FPS gun to be competitive is just ridiculous.

[Aldo69]

Ok ,Learned a good amount from this conversation, so I just focus on the little thing before big things?

I would like range, I don't really care about the fps I'm fine around 310-320 fps using .25,
I'll wait and see till next week so I can learn what I like being a Airsoft Player.

[kalnaren]

A good hop-up rubber, compression, tightbore and good BBs will get you consistent range. Long range won't do you any good if your shots fly all over yonder.

[Aldo69]

Originally Posted by kalnaren

A good hip-hop rubber, compression, tightbore and good BBs will get you consistent range. Long range won't do you any good if your shots fly all over yonder.

Do you recommend any brands? For the barrel I'm getting madbull 6.03 363mm

[coach]

Originally Posted by Eeyore

I'm not sure all those parts will work well together. I suggest you install one at a time and gauge performance.

or give it to a gun doc to upgrade everything.


OP:

For your internals, try sticking to one brand. Buying on price or what looks good is a mess when if comes to compatibility.

Personally, I really like modify parts and have built many mostly modify gearboxes. I also have a mostly LCT box that is a breeze to work on but the piston is finally showing some wear so I'll be changing it to modify to match the bore up parts.

Others will have varied opinions on brands. I stick to what works.

[MaciekA]

I have also built a lot of stuff using Modify-brand stuff and am pretty happy with it. The bonus is that multiple shops in Canada actually carry entire lines of Modify parts so you can actually brand match across your entire build if you want.

Airsoftparts carries 135 Modify-brand items:

http://www.airsoftparts.ca/store2/in...ba907597c03247

Once you get age-verified I could reveal other retailers with this stuff, otherwise you're going to have to work that Google.

[bruce]

There are some good advise given out here but let's keep the jokes to a minimum.

The real secret to any great gun is to have a consistency in its performance. Whether it's shooting sub 350s or 400s, it'll mean nothing if your bbs can't hit the target.