Range question

[CDN_Stalker]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

All your fancy charts and theories mean nothing.
The cold hard fact is that I outranged a 470fps rifle on .30s with a 360fps rifle on .25s.
I've outranged a 400fps rifle with a 290fps pistol
A 280fps UMP on .25s can outrange a 400fps AEG on .28s
I've seen first hand Amos' team's type 56's outrange his SVD.
And at the open house, my M249 at a mere 320fps managed to somehow outrange most other rifles there!

Heavier BB's give you a huge advantage at higher velocities in both range and accuracy, there's no doubt about that. So how is it physically possible that I can outrange a high fps rifle with heavy bb's with an AEG that has inferior FPS and a lower bb weight??
If everything that touches the air that moves the BB (piston head, cylinder head, cylinder, air nozzle, hop chamber, hop rubber, inner barrel) are of good quality and seal really well, you'll have an amazingly long range and accurate gun. Good compression = laminar flow, bad compression = air leaks = turbulent flow.
I'm not saying FPS has no effect on range, I'm saying it's significantly less than people think. Having good compression is more important than high FPS.

People used to think everything fell at the same speed. Until someone figured out how to build a structure more than 200 feet tall. All of a sudden heavy things hit the ground before lighter things. WITCHCRAFT!
All your theories, fancy math, big words, university level calculus and small difficult words mean nothing in comparison to actual field trial

I'm going to have to give a lot of this my backing because I've been watching various BBs fly out of various guns at various velocities and seen some pretty awesome things. Is great being me, I have a real eye for BB flight characteristics from testing and experience, and also have the mindset of being able to sort out what is going one when I see things (helps to work in the area of aerospace research, have been learning a lot over the years about aerodynamics and such).

Here's something to wrap your heads around, hop up on heavier BBs (0.25g and above) not only generates lift, but also reduces drag. Open up your minds and debate that nugget. Lol

[AngelusNex]

Originally Posted by JuicyFruits

Wait... what? I must have been sleeping in class because this doesn't make sense.

Air resistance. AKA the reason why feathers 'float'.


Also, this thread made me LOL so full of win and fail comments. I love horrendous misinformation.

Originally Posted by CDN_Stalker

Here's something to wrap your heads around, hop up on heavier BBs (0.25g and above) not only generates lift, but also reduces drag. Open up your minds and debate that nugget. Lol

My mind, that just blew it.

[krap101]

It is because of density and shape moreso than mass. Think parachute vs 200lb chunk of rock. The chute decreases the density of the person relative to the air. The same reason why people float in water, and why you'll get sucked under in an avalanche.

[Rugger_can]

I don't think the OP was asking for a physics lesson.

There are thousands of factors that will go into play that cannot be controlled. He's asking for quantifiable controllable changes that he can make to his gun to improve accuracy and range.For example; He cannot change the gravitational constant of the universe but it will effect the range of his shots so there's no point in discussing it here.

As was said before, there are many simple things you can do.

The simplest is use a heavier bb. As it will not be effected as greatly as a lighter one. Also buy the best quality you can find. I have used BB bastards and I found them excellent.

Moving from there, increasing the power of the spring your using is usually the next step. And so on and so forth.


Cheers.

[JuicyFruits]

Originally Posted by AngelusNex

Air resistance. AKA the reason why feathers 'float'.

Still cant see any links between this and :

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

People used to think everything fell at the same speed. Until someone figured out how to build a structure more than 200 feet tall. All of a sudden heavy things hit the ground before lighter things. WITCHCRAFT!

2 objects of same shape but different masses should have the same acceleration whether you drop them from 20 feet or 200 feet high. No?

[CDN_Stalker]

Originally Posted by JuicyFruits

Still cant see any links between this and :



2 objects of same shape but different masses should have the same acceleration whether you drop them from 20 feet or 200 feet high. No?

Air resistance comes into play there. A lighter object (for fun say a 0.20g BB) will be more likely affected by air resistance than a heavier object (say a 0.36g), so the heavier will hit the ground sooner than the lighter.

[ThunderCactus]

Originally Posted by JuicyFruits

2 objects of same shape but different masses should have the same acceleration whether you drop them from 20 feet or 200 feet high. No?

Acceleration yes, speed dropped from that height yes, but not terminal velocity, that's the point I was getting at lol
The big problem with doing drop tests from a 200ft building is that most objects actually reach their terminal velocity ABOVE 200ft.

We saw the trailer for whatever movie where a guy is strato diving and it turns out theres a dragon trying to catch up to him. I put forth that at their altitude, the dragon would have no problem catching up to him.
Yet he argued that because the dragon was larger, it would fall significantly slower. And I argued that because the dragon weighs several hundred pounds more, and it's frame is built for being aerodynamic, the dragon would indeed fall faster.
He religiously argued that mass had nothing to do with terminal velocity. And stated that a 2L bottle of water and a 2L bottle of lead would hit the ground at the same time dropped from any height.
Well form 200ft they'll hit the ground at the same time, but the difference in velocity for both objects wouldn't differ for about 2000ft of freefall

Anyway to summarize, he's a dumbass and I won the arguement. Seems to be common in his family though as his uncle swore water was the most conductive thing in the world lol

[Skladfin]

look, thundercactus, you need to chilax, take a step back, and think about what you are saying.

By applying your theory of compression and laminar airflow, you are saying that a pitching machine spitting a Baseball @140km/h will fly the ball farther than a baseball PITCHER throwing the same ball @ 140km/h.

That's just absolutely mindfuckingly absurd. Cmon brother, it's common sense. Assuming that they are both 140km/h, and projected at the same angle, under the same conditions, they WILL fly the same distance.

And the sole reason you would state that theory is because the pitching machine has barrel guidance and laminar airflow projecting it.

The cold hard fact is that I outranged a 470fps rifle on .30s with a 360fps rifle on .25s.
I've outranged a 400fps rifle with a 290fps pistol
A 280fps UMP on .25s can outrange a 400fps AEG on .28s
I've seen first hand Amos' team's type 56's outrange his SVD.
And at the open house, my M249 at a mere 320fps managed to somehow outrange most other rifles there!

seems like all of your weaker FPS + short barrel guns CONSTANTLY outranges all of your longer barrel and higher FPS guns. So why don't you build us a 50FPS AEG(+ awesome compression) with 10mm innerbarrel that outranges any 400FPS 600mm barrel AEG? cmon do it, it'll be fun! And then make a video for us.

What's more? That 50FPS gun will fly as far as 1000feet! Obviously duh! Laws of Compression!

[ThunderCactus]

Apply the right hopup and I guarantee the pitching machine will throw it further than the pitcher!
Obviously not every low fps gun outranges every high fps gun, those are just my examples that you don't need high fps to get long range. Using .36g BBs with a 470fps sniper rifle, with good compression, blows everything away.
And a 50fps pistol won't outrange anything because there's an ideal speed for BB's to get maximum range, and that speed is 330-350fps

In high fps rifles you use heavier ammo. Why? Because it's more accurate, yes, buy say you have a 400fps VSR-10. It's about the most reliable platform you can do testing on.
It's shooting .20g BB's at 400fps, they go all over place, but if you manage to get one to go straight you notice is has crap for range anyway because it always destabilizes vertically no matter what you set your hopup to.
If your using .25s, much better but still doesn't get a great flightpath.
.30s, okay now we're talking, they're heavier so it's harder for them to destabilize, not to mention they don't have air bubbles in them which greatly improves accuracy more than anything else. But they're also flying slow enough that they maintain their path very easily.
As you go up in weight all of a sudden you start losing range and there's nothing you can do to improve on it except go to a higher FPS.

Think of it like a glider, a glider has an optimal gliding speed, and it's NEVER it's maximum speed.
And as far as sporting good are concerned, this happens with baseballs as well, your hopup has a greater effect on your projectile at certain velocities. If your going to fast, your hopup may not have any effect at all, too slow and you'll just be shooting upwards.
I used to serve volleyballs by 'cutting' the bottom of the ball horizontally, giving it the same hopup effect as a BB. It would go damn straight every time. Once I put so much spin on it it barely got any range at all, it was going to fall 3 feet short of the net. At about 5 feet in the air it got to such a low velocity that the hopup effect hit it's optimal point and it literally picked itself back up and hopped over the net.

By straight simple physics, your absolutely correct. But your failing to take into account that hopup drastically changes the simple physics of the BB.
And if you don't have good compression, your BB doesn't stay centered in your barrel And it ricochets down before it leaves, therefore giving you crap range, crap accuracy and crap consistency.