Range question

[TokyoSeven]

I have no idea where you read that but no you do not require a non ported cylinder.
If you purchase the correct length of tight bore barrel which ideally should be the exact same length as your stock barrel then your stock cylinder should already be the appropriate bore set up.

Originally Posted by danelen

I wouldnt mind knowing what all these upgrades get me lol.

What do you mean? You whined about getting upgrades for range and accuracy! What do you think the upgrades we suggested do? Give your AEG the ability to make coffee for you at 7AM before you get out of bed? Do your laundry? Wash your car? Wipe your ass?
No they give you better range and accuracy.

[danelen]

Tokyoseven I like when you talk dirty to me like that... No what I was saying was is there a place that says ok here is how an SCS benefits you. Here is how a bucking benefits you, here is how this benefits you. I cant seem to find anywhere that breaks down the parts in the gun tells me what they do in the gun, and what I can replace them with to benefit me. However, what I have gathered here is that the best thing i could do is buy a tightbore barrel, an SCS and a bucking first. This is what I am going to do, I would like to hope that what I have read about KWAs is true. According to several other places they have amazing compression out of the box.

[TokyoSeven]

Originally Posted by danelen

No what I was saying was is there a place that says ok here is how an SCS benefits you. Here is how a bucking benefits you

Allow me to get your started then.




Hmm lets see what we can find when we type this in...




Holy shit....first result at the top of the list




Lets see where this takes us...




And here is your answer as to how and why an SCS works.




You may wish to visit that website and read additional information. Here is the link.

http://shredderscs.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=scs

[TokyoSeven]

Originally Posted by danelen

I cant seem to find anywhere that breaks down the parts in the gun tells me what they do in the gun

Lets see if I cant get you started

Once again lets go to google



Hey look! First hit on google again! Are you sure you looked that hard?
At least its the same version of mechbox you will have in your AEG.



Very interesting...but it doesnt list the name of the parts!
http://www.mechbox.com/data/how-the-mechbox-works.html



Lets go back to google again!



What do we have here...pictures! Awesome everyone loves pictures.




Once again...very very interesting and useful!
http://miairsoft.proboards.com/index...y&thread=28751




But wait! It doesnt list exact specifics of how each and every part works. Ok well lets....go back to step one!



Im not going to assist on this one and Ive held your hand long enough, so you can wear your big boy pants now and dig around on google yourself and see what you can come up with.

Oh my special wittle little guy heres a link to google to get your started.

www.google.com

Dont forget to try different wording for your search parameters, it will definitely help yield different results.

Chew your food 28 times before swallowing and look both ways before you cross the street!

-Edit

PS.

Dont forget to wash behind your ears!
And dont talk to strangers
Finger always off the trigger of your AEG unless you are planning to shoot!
If youre on fire stop drop and roll!

[m102404]

Poor bastard...hope he got his order in eventually

All my rifles are CQBR'-ish lengths for a reason...

And I only shoot 0.28's and 0.30's...rifle and/or pistol

Compression first, hopup tuning next, finish with nice BBs = win

- tightbores, nice internals, etc... help with the consistency and accuracy of it all.

FPS only matters for how much you don't want to hurt your buddies while still retaining some "hey, you're hit"-thwack.

Cleaning your barrel does wonders.

[CDN_Stalker]

Originally Posted by TokyoSeven

Lets see if I cant get you started

Once again lets go to google



Hey look! First hit on google again! Are you sure you looked that hard?
At least its the same version of mechbox you will have in your AEG.



Very interesting...but it doesnt list the name of the parts!
http://www.mechbox.com/data/how-the-mechbox-works.html



Lets go back to google again!



What do we have here...pictures! Awesome everyone loves pictures.




Once again...very very interesting and useful!
http://miairsoft.proboards.com/index...y&thread=28751




But wait! It doesnt list exact specifics of how each and every part works. Ok well lets....go back to step one!



Im not going to assist on this one and Ive held your hand long enough, so you can wear your big boy pants now and dig around on google yourself and see what you can come up with.

Oh my special wittle little guy heres a link to google to get your started.

www.google.com

Dont forget to try different wording for your search parameters, it will definitely help yield different results.

Chew your food 28 times before swallowing and look both ways before you cross the street!

-Edit

PS.

Dont forget to wash behind your ears!
And dont talk to strangers
Finger always off the trigger of your AEG unless you are planning to shoot!
If youre on fire stop drop and roll!

Holy spoonfeed Batman, that's awesome! Sticky that!!! I bet it'd cover a lot of noob questions asked every couple days.

[XerxesYoung]

Originally Posted by m102404

Poor bastard...hope he got his order in eventually

All my rifles are CQBR'-ish lengths for a reason...

And I only shoot 0.28's and 0.30's...rifle and/or pistol

Compression first, hopup tuning next, finish with nice BBs = win

- tightbores, nice internals, etc... help with the consistency and accuracy of it all.

like you said, that only helps with the accuracy, not range like the OP stated.

[Con Murder]

Originally Posted by XerxesYoung

like you said, that only helps with the accuracy, not range like the OP stated.

Read thread buddy, we who have now know how intricate the compression/hop/barrel have on effective the range. With a little reading so can you

[XerxesYoung]

I believe there's a huge misunderstanding on both sides of the debate. One side keeps talking about effective range(compression, hop, etc), and the other pure range(FPS, hop, bb).

The OP didn't specify what type of range (whether effective or just maximum with ignorance to accuracy) that he would like to achieve. Con Murder like you said, compression/hop/barrel have a great effect on the "EFFECTIVENESS of the range". Which is consistency and accuracy. The law of physics is that, the BB has no memory of where it came out from when it leaves the barrel, so the only factors that affects the pure flight distance of the BB are FPS, hop up, and BB weight(Trust me, I've read Airsoft Trajectory Project in 2007 and again now). Consistency is not going to improve pure distance, however, it would improve the effective range.

If the OP's pursuit is purely distance, then FPS and BB are the only way to go, along with good hop up(Which I believe is agreed on both sides). But it is just as important to achieve good compression in order to achieve good consistency at longer range, and maximizing effective range.

I hope I've made myself clear.

[m102404]

Originally Posted by XerxesYoung

like you said, that only helps with the accuracy, not range like the OP stated.

I did mean accuracy with regards to how all the parts fit together, tolerances and precision.

However, I do believe that accuracy...as in how exactly a shot will impact what you are aiming at...comes from:
1. Consistent FPS
2. Consistent application of hopup
3. Consistent BBs
......so point well taken.

However, there's a general dilution of meaning when people use the term range and accuracy at range.
- A given setup may have more total range (i.e. the distance from the muzzle to when the BB hits the group) than another (and it isn't all from FPS...hopup plays an enormous part in this) but can't hit the broadside of van at that range.

So you're really discussing two things here...range...and effective range. What most people want is more effective range. They want to hit what they're aiming at...and they want to be able to hit things further away.

To do that consistenly...you need accuracy. You need consitent compression...you need your FPS/BB/Rubber to be balanced such that you get the most consistent hopup applied...you need to consistent BBs so that the compression and hopup is applied the same shot after shot.

So in that blurred definition...you need accuracy to realize your most effective range.

If you're FPS is 350-351-355-352-350-349-350, etc... Then your rifle is shooting an avg of 351. If you're only getting 351 once out of every seven shots...then you're going to need to shoot more shots, to hit accurately, than a setup that shooting 350-351-351-350-352-351, etc...

Ideally, you'd want each BB coming out of the barrel at the exact same speed, with the same amount of hopup spin lift. You'd also want the BBs to be exactly the same weight, have the same surface finish, have the same center of gravity, have the same diameter, etc... (lot to ask for in a BB).

So...what to do? Settle for a "that's good enough...I'll play within my effective range"

To be able to pick out a guys hand at 200ft and say, "I can drill that every time"...sure, that'd be nice. But really not all common in airsoft. More commonly you've got a much bigger target to aim at/hit. If at that range your volley of shots would normally miss...then you need to move up into your effective range...or fine tune things to realize more effective range from your rifle.

It ain't all FPS. I've had more than a few simply beautiful shooters that shot in the "mild" 340-370 range...but man oh man, they could blast guys at range with the best of them. One had a short 280mm-ish barrel (6.03mm)...the other a little longer.

**edit**
Pffft...just saw your last post.

[XerxesYoung]

Originally Posted by XerxesYoung

If the OP's pursuit is purely distance, then FPS and BB are the only way to go, along with good hop up(Which I believe is agreed on both sides). But it is just as important to achieve good compression in order to achieve good consistency at longer range, and maximizing effective range.

Originally Posted by m102404

However, there's a general dilution of meaning when people use the term range and accuracy at range.
- A given setup may have more total range (i.e. the distance from the muzzle to when the BB hits the group) than another (and it isn't all from FPS...hopup plays an enormous part in this) but can't hit the broadside of van at that range.

So you're really discussing two things here...range...and effective range. What most people want is more effective range. They want to hit what they're aiming at...and they want to be able to hit things further away.

Thank you, you are a smart man

*shakes hands

[ThunderCactus]

All your fancy charts and theories mean nothing.
The cold hard fact is that I outranged a 470fps rifle on .30s with a 360fps rifle on .25s.
I've outranged a 400fps rifle with a 290fps pistol
A 280fps UMP on .25s can outrange a 400fps AEG on .28s
I've seen first hand Amos' team's type 56's outrange his SVD.
And at the open house, my M249 at a mere 320fps managed to somehow outrange most other rifles there!

Heavier BB's give you a huge advantage at higher velocities in both range and accuracy, there's no doubt about that. So how is it physically possible that I can outrange a high fps rifle with heavy bb's with an AEG that has inferior FPS and a lower bb weight??
If everything that touches the air that moves the BB (piston head, cylinder head, cylinder, air nozzle, hop chamber, hop rubber, inner barrel) are of good quality and seal really well, you'll have an amazingly long range and accurate gun. Good compression = laminar flow, bad compression = air leaks = turbulent flow.
I'm not saying FPS has no effect on range, I'm saying it's significantly less than people think. Having good compression is more important than high FPS.

People used to think everything fell at the same speed. Until someone figured out how to build a structure more than 200 feet tall. All of a sudden heavy things hit the ground before lighter things. WITCHCRAFT!
All your theories, fancy math, big words, university level calculus and small difficult words mean nothing in comparison to actual field trial

[XerxesYoung]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

All your fancy charts and theories mean nothing.
The cold hard fact is that I outranged a 470fps rifle on .30s with a 360fps rifle on .25s.
I've outranged a 400fps rifle with a 290fps pistol
A 280fps UMP on .25s can outrange a 400fps AEG on .28s
I've seen first hand Amos' team's type 56's outrange his SVD.
And at the open house, my M249 at a mere 320fps managed to somehow outrange most other rifles there!

Heavier BB's give you a huge advantage at higher velocities in both range and accuracy, there's no doubt about that. So how is it physically possible that I can outrange a high fps rifle with heavy bb's with an AEG that has inferior FPS and a lower bb weight??
If everything that touches the air that moves the BB (piston head, cylinder head, cylinder, air nozzle, hop chamber, hop rubber, inner barrel) are of good quality and seal really well, you'll have an amazingly long range and accurate gun. Good compression = laminar flow, bad compression = air leaks = turbulent flow.
I'm not saying FPS has no effect on range, I'm saying it's significantly less than people think. Having good compression is more important than high FPS.

People used to think everything fell at the same speed. Until someone figured out how to build a structure more than 200 feet tall. All of a sudden heavy things hit the ground before lighter things. WITCHCRAFT!
All your theories, fancy math, big words, university level calculus and small difficult words mean nothing in comparison to actual field trial

When you say outrange, do you mean the BB literally goes farther? or more effectively to a farther out distance? was the hop up set perfectly for each of these BBs? Were the guns using the same BBs? Same weight? Same brand? Were they tested side by side? were they tested on different days?

Because your claims raises a few questions.

Your claims literally break a NUMBER of laws of physics, especially those of newton's(gravity constant), AND acceleration. From a purely on-paper perspective, your claims can be instantly dropped as bogus claims. And please do not disrespect laws of physics. They are not THEORIES of physics, they are LAWS, meaning they have been proven, for hundreds of years. Without these laws your airsoft guns would not exist.

Like both I and m102404 have said, compression is purely for consistency purposes. They do not affect the flight distance of the BB. Yes, it will increase the EFFECTIVE range of your rifle, but not the pure distance like you claim. It will affect the flight distance only if better compression has achieved higher FPS. This has been proved in ATP.

When I first read Airsoft Trajectory Project, it was great because it proved many things, such as heavier BBs went farther, and these were real life testings. I believe BB Bastard hosts them because they prove something, and are extensive studies with constant control factors. In that sense, with the proofs and testing, ATP's claims of improving pure flight distance(FPS, BB, and hop up) is much more credible and believable because ATP's extensive testings and proofing backs it up. Now if you dismiss these proofs and testings as "Your fancy charts means nothing" and go on only to write a few words of your "witnessing" with no proof, writing a theory that breaks laws of physics, and disrespect, personally I believe you lose a lot of credibility for me. Because you are not giving a single bit of respect to your opposition's proofs and testings. On top of that, it's such an adolescent thing to immediately dismiss any findings disproving your beliefs.

But like I said, you're emphasis on Compression is good. After all, what's the point if you can shoot 200 feet but can't hit a side of the barn right? So you need consistency, and compression is a great way to achieve that. But for purely distance applications with ignorance to consistency and accuracy, it's FPS, BBs, and hop up.

So It's not always "my way or the highway"

just my 2 cents.

[Amos]

I've witnessed all of Cactus' claims.

He's using the .25's in the M9 because it has a fixed hop set for .25's

I'll reiterate this train of thought -- FPS is not the most important factor in range.

[JuicyFruits]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

People used to think everything fell at the same speed. Until someone figured out how to build a structure more than 200 feet tall. All of a sudden heavy things hit the ground before lighter things. WITCHCRAFT!

Wait... what? I must have been sleeping in class because this doesn't make sense.