Crazy Hi Torque Gearbox From Scratch

[Styrak]

Originally Posted by Dragate

ouch... lol k...

didn't really want spoonfeeding exactly, but more of a solid explaining of most of the stuff... internet being waht it is, lots of views in both directions.

I just don't wanna spend 400 cad and not like it.

w.e just don't reply anymore then i'll figure it outmyself

Spend $10 on a new spring. DONE. You don't need to do anything else, you're running at 350fps.

MAYBE some metal bushings, MAYBE a bearing spring guide.

So that's a whopping $40.

[Dragate]

why are you all being so short with me?

I'm not looking to get a 40 dollar Upgrade if you call that one...
I have no intention of getting high fps, no point
I have no intention of over doing rof, no point

I wanted to know which parts are the best, in your opinion challenged with those of others.
I have a want of reducing whine on gears.
-Thus helicals, good shimming, good placement of motor maybe even lower noise motors, and dynamat.
I want good durability and knowing I have the best of the best, why? Why buy a rolex, a porsce (you guys on this forum like to do anolgies)? Why not get a timex from walmart (maybe tha'ts going to low into the cansoft), a smart car? It's cheap, it works.
Why get junk food when you can get wholesome, nutritional, low fat, low cholesterol. blah blah blah foods?

I want high durability
-prometheus gears, proper adjustment of AOE, teeth shaving for proper engagement, sorbothane pads, good shimming again, mosfet for protection of selector plates... list goes on

Thank you for all your informative replies, and the offensive critical ones. Feel not the need to reply to this post.

[ILLusion]

AOE will have to be monitored manually, if you choose to throw together a gearbox constructed from so many different manufacturers.

Actually, MANY things will need to be monitored if you throw in such a frankenstein of brands.

Don't forget - all opinions you read on the internet are exactly that - an opinion.

It's easier to respect people much more who have the ability to form their own opinions.

[Skladfin]

Gah, I give up. I read this and he's like writing multiple essays on gearbox building where 97.352234523498% of it is absolutely useless and wasteful.

Dragate, if you directed this much thinking energy somewhere else, you can probably find a way to turn sand into gold.

[Dragate]

Originally Posted by ILLusion

AOE will have to be monitored manually, if you choose to throw together a gearbox constructed from so many different manufacturers.

Actually, MANY things will need to be monitored if you throw in such a frankenstein of brands.

Don't forget - all opinions you read on the internet are exactly that - an opinion.

It's easier to respect people much more who have the ability to form their own opinions.

Well actually I was planning on ding AOE manually anyways, I don't know any way to do it other ways lol~

I know it'll take lots of tweaking adjustments that goes without saying lol

It's not like I have an issue with working on this gearbox, that would be an added plus for me. Maybe this is an urge of tinking, but also good chance to understand a lot of stuff hands on, and get a really nice shooting gun.

Well, I wasn't really aiming for respect here on this forum... but... take it whichever way you want *sigh*

Originally Posted by Skaldfin

Gah, I give up. I read this and he's like writing multiple essays on gearbox building where 97.352234523498% of it is absolutely useless and wasteful.

Dragate, if you directed this much thinking energy somewhere else, you can probably find a way to turn sand into gold.

Well... I've seen lots of attempts at answering my questions or related attempts. I just kinda summed a lot of my questions into one big thread. I guess it's in my nature to question things. So many parts in a gearbox, so many parts to understand
and i dont' really feel taht you guys are directly spoon feeding me, esp not with telling me to get a kwa motor cuz that really wans't waht I asking for at all lol...
I did quite a lot of reading... still am, and I'm not gonna spend 115 bux on a set of helicals and stuff to have them break on me to post a review of my "own opinon" on how they suck when I coulda known how to set them up properly and give a good review as my "own opinion".
Obviously a bad example but i hope u catch my drift

__________________________________________________
EDIT:

Oh and illusion and tyson... guess what I found lol
Ramp up
.During the initial wind up stage run at 100% duty then drop down to normal duty.
haha hope you weren't hiding that from me

w.e I guess i'm less upset now... I was asking a lot of questions.

[m102404]

You've got a bunch of advice and opinions from this forum...and you've got some good stuff from the Airsoftmechanics forum. At this point, you should be able to form some kind of opinion on what you're going to do.

Option 1: Build from scratch
Pros:
- challenge
- you have total control over which parts are going in there
- the end result might be exactly what you were aiming for
Cons:
- there's always at least one little screw or spring that you just can't get separately...or it don't fit the threading of the mechbox you have...etc...
- mix and matching parts from different vendors quite often leads to a lot of fiddling and headaches...might be a pro depending on you

Option 2: Mod an already complete mechbox
Pros:
- it works...and then you can change one part at a time and test as you go...the comparison vs. a previous working setup is invaluable.
- typically the best bang for your buck...and spreads the pain of the cost out a bit over time...and the leftover parts you'll end up with will be good parts for spares/emergencies/your next build/etc...
- you'll have all the screws, springs and bits to work with
Cons:
- you're going to be removing perfectly good parts
- you might eventually end up not using anything but the shell and the little screws and springs

NOTE: In either case...don't buy a cheap complete mechbox to start with...the tolerances and fit are just so lousy that it's not worth it to use them as a platform for anything else.

I, and I think some others here, understand exactly what you want...it's a common thing with a lot of guys. Time to take the plunge.

Irrespective of what your objectives are...for a first time around, my advice is...start with something that works and go from there. Once you have a good handle on the ins-and-outs, you'll be able to scratch build another one (and put all those spare parts to good use).

MOSFETs and the setup of the rest of the rifle is a whole different topic....

BUT...make your own decision. Do whatever you want to do. It would be nice if you gave something back to the forum by sharing your successes/failures from your build. A lot of guys gather all this advice and then never post up what they did, what they'd do differently, what worked and what didn't.

Best of luck,

Tys

[Dragate]

Thank you~

Lol, thing is those mechanical headaches... I never get those with anything, and on a unrealted note I literally never get headaches. From a reference point of view I enjoy a nice mechanical problem to solve actually, and for the little springs and screws, I've watched a couple of vids of complete mechbox takedowns, read a few articles, seen a some pics. I have a big list of every little part down to the spring, I think it's safe to say I won't be missing much and the only problem will be fitment between brands pretty much (I don't want to sound arrogant but I do believe so).

And on giving back to the forum, I will definately when my say has any weight. Right now I have no experience, and there just isn't any point. Like earlier when I was asking about gas guns, and ppl on asc were being quite vague, I just went to gasguns, read for couple hours and I posted basically everthing I found in a real compact version. One of the other reasons for this thread was to put it out there. THe FAQ in internals on this website was far from consice and I just wanted a bit more, but I guess after lots of searching I have a huge pool of mixed past experiences.

I'll just do w.e then. My descision making for different levels is different. Any help I can get, I ask for it, why not? Proper and full descision making means to analyze all aspects of the problem, and most possible outcomes and setting priorities to the outcomes, right? When not as simple as saying, hey let's go out to eat, where you wanan go?
You have to try to maximize location, reputation, past experiences, etc etc.
Not as complicated as buidling a full gearbox, or modding out one.

What I had in mind with this thread was: I ask, "how strong is a G&P polycetal cs a Prometheus hard? I've heard Prometheus hard is known right now as the "best" pistons by some. Prometheus has a good reputation as the best quality in interal parts on the market, but reecently the piston has been getting worse reviews than a Deepfire."
Answer: Prometheus pistons are indeed good, they have one of the best hardness ratings. The enforced sides on the teeth are supposed to be the backbone of the design as to add extra reinforcement to the teeth, but being especially hard and due to a number of factors it could fail like any other piston. Even with low rof, with higher tension springs, AOE adjustment and making sure there is no premature engagement, will help it's longevity. Blah blah blah... *explains with reasons behind, not just hey, get some balls and throw w.e want, hey just put a kwa motor in there cuz i said so* Thus Prometheus is a better piston over G&P POM.

Then the next person comes a long...
G&P POM is made of poleycetal (what POM means), is a very duable and self lubing material. It is not as flexible as nylon, used in deepfire, but enough to absorb some impact when sector and rack teeth aren't perfectly aligned, thus minimizing some of the wear. The three metal teeth instead of 7....
blah blah blah
Thus, I believe G&P POMs are in their nature to last longer than Prometheus hard...

A open healthy discussion with expliations was what I had in mind, which woulda been nice...

And skaldfin, actually maybe to everybody's surprise here on asc, I was asking the modify team some questions about their products. I put in some of the stuff I have been readin (explaining what has been going wrong with their products, what has been going good, and in comparision of the ingeneuity with other brands how they compare up out of multiple multiple reveiws I have read. Plus since i have no real opinion it is pretty much objective). I also threw in a few ideas with no intention of anything happening, but now I am in contact with the engineers for some new ideas on new ways of making some of the parts. And yes, due to my talking with them, they are very highly considering manufacturing a line of modular helical/all helical sets of gears now. Plus a few other advacements in a few other areas (me and amos were like, hey what if modify made helical modulars? Pretty much as a jokekinda but I went through with it for no reason lol can't believe nobody else thought of that and recommeneded it to modify).
They are comming out with full gearboxes soon with front reinforcement... Nice... I'll keep you guys posted I guess.

And after I had gotten a bunch of experience with gearboxes and internals, I was meaning to write a very throuough in depth guide for internals with a 56k warning... lol but maybe this forum might not be the right one.

[m102404]

Well, it seems like you've done plenty of research and that's a butt-load more than a lot of guys do. Congrats.

If your experience mirrors my own (and I think others on here...but I don't want to put words into anyone elses mouth...) you'll find that even the "best" parts fail...and sometimes the "pooh-pooh'd" brands work great, sometimes. Illusion was very on-message when he said something to effect that the posts/opinions that have been offered are just that...opinions. Some are based on one-time experiences...others are based on more fullsome experiences (good or bad).

You won't find stringent scientific lab testing stuff here. You may get some of that from the guys at airsoftmechanics...maybe not. You may get some of that direct from the manufacturers.

Personally, I'm a tinkerer and a realist. I could care less what make/brand/price a given cylinder head is...as long as it seals well with the cylinder, seals well with a nozzle and doesn't break. It could be a scavanged "crappy" clone cylinder head from a junk bin...or it could be a red-anodized uber-fancy double o-ring aluminum masterpiece from Europe...as long as it gets the job done. (That's an actual example...I've used both of those and several inbetween...the "crap one" was from a junker clone, free, and the uber one retailed for !!$75!!...so far as I could tell in testing...they both worked just as well). Stringent tests may prove that one is better than the other...or statistically one can be manufactured more consistently than the other...or theoretically (theories are just opinions as well) one should be better for absorbing shock/resisting deformation/etc.....but, I personally don't care.

I've burned LOTS of money on "top-tier" parts that have failed really quickly. It's hard to retest with those parts...(since I'm not filthy rich!). Helical gears, tricked out pistons, FTK's, barrels, hopups, etc... Might have been the way I set it up...might have just been bad luck with that particular part. At the end of it all...I go with what works best for me.

The kicker of it all is this....all of the parts wear. All of the moving parts will eventually fail. If you're lucky and maintain your stuff regularly, you can catch an overly worn part before it catastrophically fails.

I've run a Deepfire full tooth poly piston in a build and shot at least 10K BBs through it at 1300rpm...took it apart and there was little to no wear. Put it back in and it kept going strong. I put another Deepfire piston into another build and shot around 1000 shots...took it apart and the front of the piston body was fractured. Does it make it a good or bad piston...no to both. Have I bought any others...no, I moved on and tested out another make.

If you give me $4000 I'll test out 10 of each commonly available pistons (min 5 five different pistons) and run them through a min of 5K rounds at a good rate of fire (~16rps) and document the all the results for you. I'll even buy you one of the pistons that performed the best! $2000 would be for the parts, the other half would be for my time (and mental agravation), and I think that I'd be short changing myself on the time factor.

If you fund it, you're welcome to help with the testing! I'll brew the coffee.

On the other hand...the outdoor gaming season is starting up and there's some shooting to do!

[Dragate]

Haha, well that's a reply I like. =]

And yes... I have done LOTS of research contrary to what other ppl may think...

And btw illusion and whoever thinks I'm indescisive, I didn't mean to actually not go through with this anymore, I just said that to spark some discussion, not disses... Hm woulda never known lol

And yes of course different reviews will have different end results. First off even if you had two gearboxes shimmed exactly the same with the same parts, due to nature of imperfections, slight devations in shooting techniques even with the same person and attempted congruency, it just wouldn't be the same.
High brand, low brand, there's always back luck somwhere, part of mother nature's properties. Basically, if you get quite a few reviews you get the jist of the overall % of luck of breakage lol...

Haha, I'll save myself 4k and just let airsoft mechanics do it LOL
I'm not filthy rich either... which is why kinda the point of those thread, so that I don't have to be a little spoild boy wreaking gearboxes here and there in top grade parts just laughing when I save off those prometheus gear teeth with my full metal piston... lol

[Skladfin]

Originally Posted by Dragate

Thank you~

Lol, thing is those mechanical headaches... I never get those with anything, and on a unrealted note I literally never get headaches. From a reference point of view I enjoy a nice mechanical problem to solve actually, and for the little springs and screws, I've watched a couple of vids of complete mechbox takedowns, read a few articles, seen a some pics. I have a big list of every little part down to the spring, I think it's safe to say I won't be missing much and the only problem will be fitment between brands pretty much (I don't want to sound arrogant but I do believe so).

And on giving back to the forum, I will definately when my say has any weight. Right now I have no experience, and there just isn't any point. Like earlier when I was asking about gas guns, and ppl on asc were being quite vague, I just went to gasguns, read for couple hours and I posted basically everthing I found in a real compact version. One of the other reasons for this thread was to put it out there. THe FAQ in internals on this website was far from consice and I just wanted a bit more, but I guess after lots of searching I have a huge pool of mixed past experiences.

I'll just do w.e then. My descision making for different levels is different. Any help I can get, I ask for it, why not? Proper and full descision making means to analyze all aspects of the problem, and most possible outcomes and setting priorities to the outcomes, right? When not as simple as saying, hey let's go out to eat, where you wanan go?
You have to try to maximize location, reputation, past experiences, etc etc.
Not as complicated as buidling a full gearbox, or modding out one.

What I had in mind with this thread was: I ask, "how strong is a G&P polycetal cs a Prometheus hard? I've heard Prometheus hard is known right now as the "best" pistons by some. Prometheus has a good reputation as the best quality in interal parts on the market, but reecently the piston has been getting worse reviews than a Deepfire."
Answer: Prometheus pistons are indeed good, they have one of the best hardness ratings. The enforced sides on the teeth are supposed to be the backbone of the design as to add extra reinforcement to the teeth, but being especially hard and due to a number of factors it could fail like any other piston. Even with low rof, with higher tension springs, AOE adjustment and making sure there is no premature engagement, will help it's longevity. Blah blah blah... *explains with reasons behind, not just hey, get some balls and throw w.e want, hey just put a kwa motor in there cuz i said so* Thus Prometheus is a better piston over G&P POM.

Then the next person comes a long...
G&P POM is made of poleycetal (what POM means), is a very duable and self lubing material. It is not as flexible as nylon, used in deepfire, but enough to absorb some impact when sector and rack teeth aren't perfectly aligned, thus minimizing some of the wear. The three metal teeth instead of 7....
blah blah blah
Thus, I believe G&P POMs are in their nature to last longer than Prometheus hard...

A open healthy discussion with expliations was what I had in mind, which woulda been nice...

And skaldfin, actually maybe to everybody's surprise here on asc, I was asking the modify team some questions about their products. I put in some of the stuff I have been readin (explaining what has been going wrong with their products, what has been going good, and in comparision of the ingeneuity with other brands how they compare up out of multiple multiple reveiws I have read. Plus since i have no real opinion it is pretty much objective). I also threw in a few ideas with no intention of anything happening, but now I am in contact with the engineers for some new ideas on new ways of making some of the parts. And yes, due to my talking with them, they are very highly considering manufacturing a line of modular helical/all helical sets of gears now. Plus a few other advacements in a few other areas (me and amos were like, hey what if modify made helical modulars? Pretty much as a jokekinda but I went through with it for no reason lol can't believe nobody else thought of that and recommeneded it to modify).
They are comming out with full gearboxes soon with front reinforcement... Nice... I'll keep you guys posted I guess.

And after I had gotten a bunch of experience with gearboxes and internals, I was meaning to write a very throuough in depth guide for internals with a 56k warning... lol but maybe this forum might not be the right one.

very good job on that, you made something happen.

By the way, write a guide when you have the EXPERIENCE.

And please.... if you could sum up your thoughts in 3 sentences...that would be nice too.

[Dragate]

Originally Posted by Skladfin

very good job on that, you made something happen.

By the way, write a guide when you have the EXPERIENCE.

And please.... if you could sum up your thoughts in 3 sentences...that would be nice too.

lol see my previous post...
I said my say has no weight atm, I will write a review after having lots of experience... lolz

A nice essay is always nice to read

[ILLusion]

There's "nice essays", and then there's rambling thoughts. Yours is the latter.

LOL.

I didn't mean to come off as berating you. I was just grumpy from a long work day and was tired. lol.

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with building fully custom gearboxes from top tier parts, (besides burning DEEP holes in your wallet...). None of my guns ever stay stock for more than the 30 minutes it takes for me to take it out of the box and fondle it. I've sunk well over $1000 in to a single gearbox build before, and is it something I'd do again? Probably not. Especially when there are much more revolutionary gearboxes that can be had with almost top tier parts for MUCH cheaper.

For example, the Systema complete gearboxes... they're not that expensive, and would be the same price or even cheaper than a complete custom build. Even if you built a completely custom gearbox all from parts that you've chosen by hand with parts that are same or even LOWER grade than Systema, I can guarantee you that it will cost you more than that factory built quality controlled and tested Systema gearbox!

That's one of the main reasons I haven't built a custom gearbox for a client in quite a while. Financially speaking, the Systema product speaks volumes. Is it the best? No. But you get a very good quality product for cheaper than it would cost you to build a gearbox of your own from lower grade products.

Does that mean I'd never build a custom gearbox for one of my own guns again? Well... I have a penchant for not leaving ANYTHING I own alone, so yes, I'd absolutely do it again IF I can afford the time. These days, time is quite the commodity, so there could even be the possibility that I'd drop in a Systema Revolution just to try that bad boy out. It'd definitely save me a lot of time.

[Dragate]

It's okay I guess the posts weren't too degrading...

Hm, I've been doing some calculations recently, and yes, haha if you get a systema drop in anything, M120 torque, M150 trubo...
It's always cheaper by the box, but then again, even cheaper by the gun haha

the more you buy the more you save
Thing is tho, my main point in this current build is the gears. Prometheus all helicals... Which is 115 cad w/o shipping.
One option... would be systema M150 ultra torque with systema helicals for abit more money... Then I would only have to change the spring, but thing is, I would rather be on the lowest grade of torque gears cuz I"m running a M120 and I don't want to severly over torque. But also, the gear ration from double torque to ultra toruqe is only acutlay 4 more... which will reduce by very little rate of fire, but thing is these builds might work the other way around and plus i have no experince, it might end up goin the other way and increasing rof, which isn't all that bad of a thing but it' snot doing what it's supposed to do and I have worries on that.

And I every much would like to try the revolutions too haha. Apparently they're pretty mcuh already factory adjusted for AOE and pre engagement. Pretty sick... but their ECU isn't as user firendly and modular as if you were to get your own. But 4 gears, no anti reversal, no tappet...
"revolution"

btw revolutions might not save you time haha. I've heard of multiple pisons snapping on the first tooth and the people have gotten many replacements... so maybe some guntechs are a little on the incompetent side at systema? lol...
Thus would require you to pretty much do some fiddling again.

[Styrak]

You're rambling again.

Also, what do you mean by "over-torque-ing"?

[ujiro]

He means using like the Infinite torque up or ultra torque up, where he only needs the regular torque up gears. Just a higher-torque ratio, more so than he needs. Not really any downside to having that though, just a little useless, more than you need. Might sacrifice some RoF though.