Walkie Talkies.

[Mud Gunner]

Our crew is using Garmin Rinos and have pretty scuccess with them and having GPS capability built in, comes in handy for not just games but on hikes and such. Not having book in front of me, I believe they transmit slightly higher output than a bubblepack radio.

I have access to a Gp68 and thats pretty good radio but not the most user friendly to program in my mind, unless someone has a dummy version for artillerymen!

[LUTNIT]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

For FRS and GMRS freqs which don't bounce (like AM) you need line of sight. If you have line of sight you can make a standard GMRS radio go 10km easily (2 watts presumed), but if you have terrain blocking you your SOL.

So at games like at zone27 and the dogs pit in Montreal, when I am on the opposite side of the hill that is several stories tall, obviously completely blocking LoS and I can still transmit and receive 100% without any static with GMRS, I'm imagining things?

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

GMRS and FRS bubble pack radios wattage is set by the FCC and the CRTC, so pretty much all bubble pack radios have the same output power.

What about the differences between 0.1W, 0.5W, 1W, and 3W radios? I've had guys 100m away through brush with 0.1W radios come in all broken up. I've also had instances where someone two kilometers away in a city with a 1W GMRS can hear me clear as day (I use a 3W GMRS, at least the package says so) but his messages come in as pure static.

I've also run into situations where someone transmitting 5W on an FRS channel with one of the really nice radios just blew every FRS away. All transmissions came in as a constant tone unless they were at least 500m away through really dense brush. The further they got the more variation in the tone you could hear until you could finally make out the words.

My Motorola T7100 GMRS can transmit clear as day to someone 750-900m away (few airsoft fields will involve distances further than that, at least in the Ottawa/Montreal area) over several hills, with zero line of sight, with more than half that distance being covered with really dense brush so I'm happy with it and I snagged it for US$20 shipped off of eBay and get 40-50 hour battery life running on alkaline batteries.

[Jayhad]

pIRATE I purchased a longer antenna and it works a lot better

[Ronan]

What about this:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1175388884051
or
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1171058471203

Lutnit - 900 meters is hardly a litmus test in this scenario. I've seen GMRS radio's that were essentially useless at 300 meters in the hills, and UHF sets that could blast clear across the entire field one minute..of course, you still couldn't hear the FRS and GMRS radios although they could hear you just fine.

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by LUTNIT

So at games like at zone27 and the dogs pit in Montreal, when I am on the opposite side of the hill that is several stories tall, obviously completely blocking LoS and I can still transmit and receive 100% without any static with GMRS, I'm imagining things?

EDIT: Now I see what you're saying here - Yes your right you get some bounce - but when I made that statement I was thinking AM vs FM and FM bounce is nothing like AM bounce. To hammers, FM is largely considered 'bounceless'

No actually you're not. Different brands of radio have antennas with slightly different gains at different frequencies - its natural to get variation, and also you can get some bounce, even in FRS and GMRS frequencies within or around terrain - but you don't get a lot because those freqs get absorbed more easily then say AM band, which bounces a lot more. That isn't to say you don't get any bounce from FRS/GMRS.

Originally Posted by LUTNIT

What about the differences between 0.1W, 0.5W, 1W, and 3W radios? I've had guys 100m away through brush with 0.1W radios come in all broken up. I've also had instances where someone two kilometers away in a city with a 1W GMRS can hear me clear as day (I use a 3W GMRS, at least the package says so) but his messages come in as pure static.

There are numerous atmospheric, terrain and radio interference sources that can influence transmission and reception distances. Many of them you cannot see and many of them requiring someone more knowledgable than me to explain. Suffice it to say that power is not the be all and end all in a radio. Its an important factor but antenna gain on receive is equally if not more important at the receiving end. Hearing someone come through in the clear may have more to do with the quality of the reception of a radio and the antenna gain than it does with the transmission power.

Originally Posted by LUTNIT

I've also run into situations where someone transmitting 5W on an FRS channel with one of the really nice radios just blew every FRS away. All transmissions came in as a constant tone unless they were at least 500m away through really dense brush. The further they got the more variation in the tone you could hear until you could finally make out the words.

If you're too close to a transmitter that overpowers your receiver and the receiver isn't designed to handle it, you can get overpowering distortion. In a game where I am communicating with people on FRS or GMRS often times I put my radio into LO power mode (<2.0watts) so as to avoid this effect. Typically when I use the Kenwood. No so with the VX-7R.

Some radios are sophistocated enough to pick up reception and then judge gain quality and power levels and adjust subsequent transmission power as the radio is communicating with that station (I have that on the VX-7R) which also saves battery power. Some have this as an option you turn on and some do this automatically as part of the transmit/receive circuit.

Originally Posted by LUTNIT

My Motorola T7100 GMRS can transmit clear as day to someone 750-900m away (few airsoft fields will involve distances further than that, at least in the Ottawa/Montreal area) over several hills, with zero line of sight, with more than half that distance being covered with really dense brush so I'm happy with it and I snagged it for US$20 shipped off of eBay and get 40-50 hour battery life running on alkaline batteries.

Thats terrific, but there is more to the equation than that. If you've got the right conditions you can bounce a signal around inside a 1km box and if you have the right antennas you can catch those bounces as well. I doubt it would perform the same way with every brand receiving and I am sure leafy foilage at some point will absorb the signal even with no terrain features.

I saw this demonstrated when I tried the Kenwood and a Moto T7200 and used it in the same terrain up north at 800m. In the winter, it worked great up to 1.4km. In the summer when the leaves and other foilage is at its peak, I was getting breakup at 950m and unreadable at my winter distance.

I don't deny you're observing those results but it probably as much to do with local conditions and the receivers as it does with the transmitter itself. I would say that if you have that experience with that radio in that locale, then its good advice to go with for someone else in that same locale. Keep in mind it could perform totally differently in another locale.

Can you get away with $20 bubblepack radios? Sure. There are just more options with the ham sets if you know now to take advantage of them and value that enough to spend the extra money.

[Scarecrow]

Text taken from another site:

Penetration and blocking of radio waves
Radio waves are attenuated by almost all objects they pass through, e.g. air, people, trees, buildings and the ground. Dense objects such as earth or metals block radio waves very well. Only a few feet of either can make radio communications impossible. ** However, radio waves also bounce off objects, and this effect can be used to allow communications around corners and inside otherwise impenetrable objects such as steel buildings. Higher frequencies tend to bounce and penetrate more, thus UHF radios are the most suited for work inside buildings and cities. There is a practical limit to this however, and beyond 400-500 MHz the penetration of radio waves starts to fall off again.


Sensitivity
Good receiver sensitivity is an excellent way to make up for low transmit power. Increasing transmitter power takes more energy, and thus translates into shorter battery life on portable radios. Increasing receiver sensitivity usually does not require more power, so this is a desirable characteristic. Most modern radios have excellent sensitivity. Sensitivity is usually measured in microvolts, also abbreviated as uV. The lower the number, the better the sensitivity. A good radio will have a sensitivity of 0.2uV or lower. Up to 0.4uV is acceptable for UHF radios.



** a ham operator once explained to me that it was even possible to bounce or attenuate radio waves in temperature inversion layers in the atmosphere -this also explains non-LOS communications in conditions that are seemingly impossible to explain -again things you cannot see affecting transmission direction as its attenuated and redirected through a temperature layer above your transmission point.

[LUTNIT]

Originally Posted by MadMorbius

Lutnit - 900 meters is hardly a litmus test in this scenario. I've seen GMRS radio's that were essentially useless at 300 meters in the hills, and UHF sets that could blast clear across the entire field one minute..of course, you still couldn't hear the FRS and GMRS radios although they could hear you just fine.

I wasn't saying 900 meters was a prime example of performance. Its just that I don't think I've ever found myself more than 1km from who ever I'm talking to in an airsoft game before and even if that distance is completely covered with hills and trees the cheaper radios work just great. Its just that a local Ottawa newb was talking to me about radios and because of something he read here on ASC he thought he HAD to get a $150 UHF radio, just throwing in a voice for the better cheaper radios. A lot of people think that unless its some hugely expensive UHF radio, its useless.

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

** a ham operator once explained to me that it was even possible to bounce or attenuate radio waves in temperature inversion layers in the atmosphere -this also explains non-LOS communications in conditions that are seemingly impossible to explain -again things you cannot see affecting transmission direction as its attenuated and redirected through a temperature layer above your transmission point.

My dad is a HAM operator and he actually told me he did this once by accident because of extreme humidity variations between the temperature layers, nifty. Though I haven't talked to my dad about radio stuff for years though I did hear that you no longer need to know morris code to get your license?

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by LUTNIT

IMy dad is a HAM operator and he actually told me he did this once by accident because of extreme humidity variations between the temperature layers, nifty. Though I haven't talked to my dad about radio stuff for years though I did hear that you no longer need to know morris code to get your license?

I was looking at getting my ham license and there are two classes of license now, one with and one without morse code.

They have online tests you can take and there is a lot of electronics and stuff - probably a lot of it is out of date now. The tests were made back in the day when people made their own sets and had to know their shit or they'd end up wiping out channels for miles around them. I don't think the licensing truely reflects today's potential user of a handheld set. I'd rather have someone know how to handle themselves on a net than know what the colors are to a resistor (yes, thats one question on the test).

Originally Posted by LUTNIT

Its just that a local Ottawa newb was talking to me about radios and because of something he read here on ASC he thought he HAD to get a $150 UHF radio, just throwing in a voice for the better cheaper radios.

To be honest my airsoft experience these day is Muskoka and in dense bush with a lot of terrain, hence my obsession with a good set with a good SMA interchangable duck. I also like the additional features (programming from a PC/tactical headset and PTT, etc). Do you 'need' it? Well, I'd say thats the same evaluation you make on anything airsoft - you don't strictly need any of it. As I said though I do find it useful to be able to go out-of-band of the bubblepack radios for security purposes and many of my teammates have these radios so its a non-issue for us, we just get them and use them.

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by Cushak

Are radios like the Kenwood TH-G71 compatible with 'bubble pack radios'?

Bubblepacks are better in one respect - CTCSS is built in whereas on ham sets they have to be set manually. CTCSS is subchanneling or privacy (which it really isn't). I tend to go on n.0 channels on FRS or GMRS because CTCSS is such pain to program (even on the new radio).

'Compatibility' isn't a term I'd really use - all radios are designed to send and recceive so in that respect, they are all fully compatible in order to speak to each other.

The problem you were having was that someone was trying to use a UHF/VHF radio without programming their CTCSS to whatever the bubblepack radio was set to, so it appears that the bubblepack radio isn't receiving, when in fact is, its just the without the CTCSS tone, the squelch isn't opening.

If you don't know what I am talking about, research it and if your ears begin to bleed, stick to bubblepack radios.

[Ibby]

Scarecrow's pretty much covered it all. CTCSS doesn't really do anything for you, it should be shut off. It's more of a pain in the ass than anything.

One thing folks don't realize is this range of frequencies is probably the most useless in the entire RF spectrum. That's why they were given away free to use. It's not a great long range frequency, it's not the best short range frequency. One thing it is good for is aboard ships, the narrow wavelength tends to travel well through small openings in ship's bulkheads. Out in the real world it bounces off vegetation and gets absorbed by rocks and earth.
As for radios themselves, if you get a bubble pack, don't bitch about the performance of it. You get what you pay for.

[thePiRaTE!!]

Originally Posted by Mud Gunner

Our crew is using Garmin Rinos and have pretty scuccess with them and having GPS capability built in, comes in handy for not just games but on hikes and such. Not having book in front of me, I believe they transmit slightly higher output than a bubblepack radio.

I have access to a Gp68 and thats pretty good radio but not the most user friendly to program in my mind, unless someone has a dummy version for artillerymen!

Just looking at the Rino 530. Can pick it up locally (Calgary) for 389.95CAD. This seems like a nice price for a brand name piece of kit which fills two big roles both seemingly well. Can anyone with the advantage of experience see any drawbacks? (aside from the proprietary headset plug)

[Ibby]

The only drawback is getting a BB hit on the faceplate causing a crack. It's not a big issue though, when I carry my Rino 120 on the field the faceplate is towards me in a radio holder.
As for the proprietary plug, it's not a big deal. I made an adapter for mine so I could use my Kenwood headset with it. The only problem is the unit doesn't support remote keying, so you need to use the PTT button on the radio itself. No biggie really.

[Scarecrow]

I have a Rino 120 and virtually never use it.

Heard of the phrase jack of all trades master of nothing? Thats describes the Rino series. Its a great idea but it needs a better radio, a better GPS and a better display.

That being said I've used it with Claymore (he has one too) in games where we needed to draw our forces together to have contacts. We purposely play on opposite teams and then create conflict situations and use the Rinos to coordinate where and when the contacts occur - both teams not knowing we're actually doing that - and it works out well. However for team coordination I find gridding the field and using paper based op maps and radios and just asking for a locstat is easier than trying to fiddle with the GPS. Half the time we can't get a signal with the Rinos because the radio part sucks so much - even after the GMRS firmware upgrade that supposedly unlocks 2 watts.

[Ibby]

I have to agree. I bought my 120 in the US. The output power is pretty much 2 watts but the radio portion of the unit is only as good as any other bubble pack.