Systema polycarbonate pistons SUCK

[MADDOG]

Same thing happened to my red systema piston that came with an upgrade kit. They are shit and I use the madbull (from Jugglez)pistons now and they work great.

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by Crunchmeister

I bought it from Jugglez just over a month ago, so I assumed it was one of the newer 'fixed' models. Perhaps it was old stock he was carrying.

They were modified long before Jugglez was in business. I highly doubt he's carrying stock from back then. It was changed about 6 years ago.

Originally Posted by Gigaknight

I heard that Systema had modified this one and that they are now colored black, as to differentiate new from old; has anyone heard of this? I recall seeing it in a review of several brand-name pistons but I don't remember the website.

The modified ones have been red for a long time. Systema just released a newer one last year coloured black that is under the Systema name, rather than under the Area1000 name their old black pistons were under. The only difference is the materials used, but the build is still pretty much the same.


In any case, I haven't had any major problems using Systema pistons in any of my setups. I even have the OLD style red Systema piston in my P90 since 2002 and that's been running strong for years - even with springs that shot over 450fps.

The damage shown in the OP looks like damage similar to something that could occur with a high ROF setup.

[CDN_Stalker]

To those that have installed the Deep Fire Full Titanium piston, haven't any of you found that piston sucks when used with a bearing spring guide? I've installed two of them into two different guns, one wouldn't cycle at all, would just keep seizing up until I swapped the spring guide over to a stock one, then it shot 100%; the second would cycle for a dozen or two shots, then sieze up on the bearing spring guide. Open the gun, reset it, cycle fine for a bit then sieze again. Problem went away with a Modify piston.

[Zekk05]

+1 to the Systema Polycarbonate piston's lack of performance.

mine broke in the Exact same place before the rifle hit 1000 rounds.

Modify you say? hmmm, ive been using a CA piston since.

[Crunchmeister]

Thanks for the info on the state of the red Systema piston, Illusion. I had no idea that the problem went back 6 years. I would say it's safe to assume I have one of the recent models.

That being said, I'm still convinced these new pistons are shit. And from the experience of other used in this thread alone (not to mention the countless others I've found from a google search), their polycarbonate pistons, black or red, are equally garbage.

Putting this into context, Illusion is sort of correct about the high speed setup. I'm running the gun on a 9.6V 3800 mAh large battery, so I do get a rof in the 20+ bb/s range. However, that's not exactly an extreme rof, and I still don't see why that should be a reason for a brand new piston to fail so totally after that little use, with most of the use being in semi auto or short burts of auto fire. I could see it wearing a bit, perhaps, but not failing catastrophically like that.

Since replacing the busted Systema piston with a USED Tokyo Marui piston, I've put about 500 rounds through the gun in full auto just to test durability. Last night I cracked open the mechbox again to inspect the TM piston to see if it showed any signs of similar wear that could indicate some other problem inside the gun. It looks as pristine as when I first installed it the day before.

If my "high speed" set up was the problem, it would surely have chewed through a stock TM piston as well. I put at least double the number of rounds through my gun with this new piston than I did with the Systema piston, yet no sign of wear. But it chewed up a 'top of the line' Systema piston in under 300 rounds. And when I say 300 rounds since the piston was installed, I'm REALLY pushing it. I only used 3 68-round mags during the game itself, plus a little test firing at the staging area to set the hopup.

So I'm still of the opinion that these Systema pistons are shit and won't be wasting my money on them again.

[ILLusion]

Despite my comment about the wear/damage being indicative of a high-speed setup, your description of your setup would not indicate such.

I can't see any other reason for such wear occurring besides a crap piston.

Anyways, I've stopped putting Systema pistons in to my guns a while ago and just hoping they all break sooner or later so that I can put in Prometheus pistons. I've been using Prometheus pistons since they've come out and despite having inventory on Deep Fire pistons with titanium teeth, I prefer the Prometheus piston over it. The synthetic material is much tougher. The material of the DF pistons seem brittle and similar in composition to the Systema one, whereas the Prometheus ones seem much tougher.

[Crunchmeister]

Thanks for the comments on this everyone. These discussions always turn into a great learning experience for me.

[m102404]

I've put in quite a few modify and deepfire pistons lately and both have held up extremely well (i.e. complete lack of or absolute minor wear on teeth after extended shooting, both mid-300 and 400fps setups). 2 deepfire and about 8 modify's.

I had a deepfire piston on my silly-ROF (it was measuring 1300+ish bbm) and I used to run string after string of mags through it in continuous bursts (it was just fun to show people and everyone that tried it had a gas). Bags of bbs were put through that (and gratuitous dry firing... ), and it was used at the AEG Workshop (it was disassembled and reassembled at least 4 times). Piston still looks brand new, with 1 very minor wear mark on the "back side" of the 2nd tooth (i.e. it looks like the first tooth of the sector gear just barely caught it). 300 fps, sw-ab-mosfet, system magnum, 9.6v 1500mah "mini" battery.

+1 to Stalker's comments, sort of. I've fought with one full tooth deepfire piston before I figured out that the inside diameter was a bit tight and was hanging up on the compressed spring/bearing guide. I swapped the spring (same power, different make) and it's ran just fine in my CQB build. But it was just that one deepfire polycarbonate piston, others have seemed to be fine.

I do think that you need to be careful on where the sector gear engages the piston teeth, especially when installing a non-stock TM piston or mixing and matching pistons/piston-heads. A deepfire piston/system silent head set combo that I installed was too "short" and a spacer needed to be added between the head and the piston body to lengthen it. A modify piston body and head seems to be just right. A modify piston and guarder head seems to be ok, if not on the short side. A Power Upgradez full metal tooth piston (some euro part Jugglez gave me to test out) and a systema silent head set seems just right. A quick comparison measurement can be taken to compare a new piston/piston-head to a stock TM one, but I think that the piston head needs to be considered into the final length, especially with different piston-heads (i.e. silent/pom setups). I suppose the real comparative measurement that you're after is the position of the first tooth of the piston, when the piston is fully forward against the cylinder head. I posted up some sample lengths a while ago, but can't remember when/where it is.

"Oddly", I have an old stock CA piston that has had multiple bags of bbs through it with zero issues (other than the o-ring is all dried out now). It is definitely not the same length as a stock TM.

It's too bad Crunch didn't flip the broken part over, I would have liked to see the side of the broken part that the sector gear engages. In my opinion (guys like Illusion and Stalker have tons more experience than I do), you can plainly see that the sector gear didn't engage cleanly, noted by the gouges in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th teeth. Looks like the piston wasn't far enough forward when the sector gear came around to engage it.

A bum part is a bum part. Could be a "tough-shit" one off or it could be systemic of that part/manufacturer. These things are produced in the thousands and sold for peanuts (not here...overseas). I've seen springs that were too big (diameter) and would bind, piston head shatter, new "expensive" air seal nozzles leak more than clones, pistons break, gears strip, bushings fail (they were plastic ones and I ran them continuously just to see what would happen... ), electrical wiring self-disassemble and switch assemblies burn out. With few exceptions, I wouldn't be in a hurry to say that any one part or manufacturer is sh*t. (Except for the "1st gen" cheap clone stuff...it's horrible)

Apologies for babbling....

[Crunchmeister]

No babbling there dude. All info from someone with experience is good info. The more the better. I'm learning this stuff from first-hand experience, and comments I get from you guys are either validating or correcting my initial assumptions.

As for the wear, I do agree that it looks like the piston length is an issue and that the sector gear wasn't lining up with the first few teeth properly. It's what it appeared to me, and I'm glad to have someone else bring that up to at least partially validate my initial thought.

For reference, the gun is sporting a Systema silient piston & cylinder head set, as well as a Systema bearing spring guide. The only part of the compression system that's stock is the CA cylinder. That's why I went with all Systema for the compression parts. I figured they would all fit and work together without issue. Guess I was wrong in assuming this. Now I have the Systema piston head mounted on the TM piston, and due to the lack of any signs of wear, I'm assuming the sizes are correct.

We'll see how it holds out. At worse, I still have the old stock CA piston that also shows absolutely no signs of wear (after 20 000 rounds). As long as it fires reliably, I couldn't care less what brand name the parts are or what they're made of.