High Pressure Air (HPA) for GBB

[Feddar]

Tapping a mag
http://m.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=...&v=IH5R45DbakE

[highny]

Another question related to this:

Anyone know what's the PSI difference between Green Gas and Co2 and HPA?

I'm carious because if I have a Green gas mag and I want to fill it with Co2 and I have a gage so I set it to green gas PSI, would that work?

[Feddar]

I think CO2 is around 800psi, and propane is around 120psi. It depends on the temperature. Here are some graphs I found.ImageUploadedByTapatalk1339471772.151225.jpg

[Matt 'Maverick' Watts]

high pressure air (hpa) is very dependant on the regulator on the tank. While an hpa tank can be filled to 3000psi or 4500 psi, the output of the regulator can vary between 150psi up to 1200 psi.
If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does and have them do the work for you. The last thing you need is to be messing around with a system that could cause serious damage if not installed properly, or the wrong output pressure used.
Tapping for fittings, using the proper fittings, the proper lines, the correct output pressures are all critical when adapting a system to use hpa.

[highny]

So what your saying is if I fill my green gas mag with co2, it would explode?

[Endymion]

Regardless whether you choose CO2 or HPA as your gas source, you will need to have a regulator to bring down the pressure before it enters the mag.

[highny]

So just to clarify before I screw anything up, the way a GBB mag works is:

You fill gas through valve,(propane to valve)
Then has is being stored in empty sealed space, pressurized.
When you fire, a set amount of gas is being release through a different set of valve to the gun.
For different type of gas, the pressure is different in the gas storage in the mag.
Too high pressure will blow seals.
The way regulated works is reduce the pressure of gas in the storage in the mag so the seal doesn't get blown and so the amount of gas that goes through the gun isn't too high so it damage the gun.

When I'm tapping into a mag, I'm just tapping into the gas storage system, thus eliminating the use the first valve.
So if a mag can handle the pressure of a higher gas, I can technqiliy use the first valve. But because most mags are design to take green gas, they need a regulator to help lower the pressure of other gas.

To equalized the pressure of different gas in the same space of lower pressure gas, it just means they fill it with less higher pressure gas. Kind of like:
5(2) = 2(5)
5 of green gas = 2 of co2

Am I correct?

Thanks for the help. Extremely noob when I comes to this stuff.

[Matt 'Maverick' Watts]

I strongly suggest you talk to a qualified paintball airsmith. They are intimately familiar with hpa and hpa systems and can help you with what you want to do.

If you're thinking of replacing the propane storage space in a GBBR mag with high pressure air, forget it. The magazine storage space cannot handle the pressure of storing high pressure air.
If you want to put a fill nipple on the GBBR mag and attach that to a remote line/hpa tank setup and use the GBBR mag gas storage space as part of the air system, it MAY work IF your mag valve can be adjusted to hold the proper pressure AND your hpa tank can be adjusted to output at a correct pressure for you application.

[coach]

Originally Posted by highny

So what your saying is if I fill my green gas mag with co2, it would explode?

You will not get many shots and your mag will leak.

Originally Posted by highny

So just to clarify before I screw anything up, the way a GBB mag works is:

You fill gas through valve,(propane to valve)
Then has is being stored in empty sealed space, pressurized.
When you fire, a set amount of gas is being release through a different set of valve to the gun.
For different type of gas, the pressure is different in the gas storage in the mag.
Too high pressure will blow seals.
The way regulated works is reduce the pressure of gas in the storage in the mag so the seal doesn't get blown and so the amount of gas that goes through the gun isn't too high so it damage the gun.

When I'm tapping into a mag, I'm just tapping into the gas storage system, thus eliminating the use the first valve.
So if a mag can handle the pressure of a higher gas, I can technqiliy use the first valve. But because most mags are design to take green gas, they need a regulator to help lower the pressure of other gas.

To equalized the pressure of different gas in the same space of lower pressure gas, it just means they fill it with less higher pressure gas. Kind of like:
5(2) = 2(5)
5 of green gas = 2 of co2

Am I correct?

Thanks for the help. Extremely noob when I comes to this stuff.

Just to understand you, your intention is to do a classic rig or do you plan to replace propane with CO2/HPA?

Tapping your mag is to replace the "fill" valve with an adapter/QD connector to attach an air line which is part of your regulator that is connected to your tank.

Technically yes, you can full a mag with CO2/HPA with a CO2 fill adapter BUT the properties of CO2/HPA will not allow for a proper fill for the intended usage.

When GBB/R mags are filled with green gas/propane, you are actually transferring liquid propane. By volume, you will not be able to get anything worth doing if you tried with CO2/HPA.
The expansion rate of CO2 from liquid to gas far exceeds that of propane.

The pressures of HPA, which is compressed air, would definitely blow your seals since there is no liquid to gas state change. You might get enough for a couple shots but nothing worth attempting.

Please search on here for the numerous threads about using CO2/HPA in a propane mag!

If you want to run an air rig with a remote line, ten we can take the discussion in that direction!

[Feddar]

Do you have any idea where I could find a paintball gunsmith in Toronto? I tried googling, I came up empty.

[Feddar]

Originally Posted by coach

If you want to run an air rig with a remote line, ten we can take the discussion in that direction!

Yes, that is the original intention of this thread.

I've looked around a fair bit. Basically, the best solution is to use a paint ball HPA system, and then use a regulator to down regulate the pressure to 80-120 PSI (ie Green gas pressure).

I've come across two setups that can achieve this. One comes from Palmer Pursuits. The other from Redline Airsoft.

I have contacted Craig Palmer from Palmer Pursuit, and e-mailed him about the specifics. He has been very helpful. He has stated that in order to tap of the green gas valve at the bottom of the magazine, you have to drill a hole in it, and established threads to fit the adapter.

Once this is done, you can use the Palmer or Redline set up to connect to a paintball HPA tank. Both set ups will allow you to adjust the input pressure into the magazine anywhere between 0 and 250 psi.

You can, of course, build your own set up using various parts. All the documentation is available at classicairsoft.com. You have to know what you're doing, or you can ruin your gun, or worse.

My stumbling block is getting somebody to drill the magazine's green gas valve to accept the adapter. Palmer told me I can do that myself, but without the proper tools and experience, it is easy to mess this up.

Any ideas where I can get this done? I live in Toronto.

[m102404]

Drilling and tapping a hole is about as easy as screwing in a screw...just takes longer. Here's the 1-2-3 of it.

1. Get the fitting that you're going to use. Determine the thread size and pitch of it. (Either contact the company and ask...or take it to a good machine tool shop...like Atlas down on Queen street...and ask them to help you figure it out).

2. Buy a tap handle...and the appropriate tap. Be really nice to the guys at Atlas and they'll help you out tons. DO NOT be an idiot and take your gun and shit there. Tell them you're tapping into fairly soft cast metal. Buy tapping lube/oil. They'll have a drill size guide too...and they'll set you up with the proper drill size for the hole/material you want to tap into.

3. Drill the hole (did I mention that you'll want to buy at least one spare drill bit....). And tap the threads. Lube the tap, screw in gently and with even pressure...don't force anything. The tap will start to bite and when you have a bit started, then turn in a quarter turn, turn out...turn in more, turn out...repeat. On some things you can go a bit faster/aggressive...but you won't hurt anything by going slower. The counter turn breaks the chips off the cut and the lube/oil helps get the chips out of the tap so it doesn't jam up.

Obviously...clean the chips/oil/etc...up afterwards.

All done...tape seal the threads of the adapter...screw it in gently...all done. Once you have the proper drill/tap size...it'll take longer to read this about how to do it than it will to do it.

[highny]

Hey guys.

Thanks for the heads up. Didn't know propane mags actually transfer the liquid in. Always thought it was just gas...

Yes, my goal is to tap into a few different gun(like a airsoft shotgun). They're build in gas storage that is what I'm attempting first. Understanding that I can not just fill CO2/HPA into it, tapping the gas storage would be my choice.

If I knew any mechanics I would ask. Seeing how everything cost so much(regulator, tank, etc) I figure I should learn on my own. I got drill press, tons of bits, and soon threading tools, why spend the money when I can do it myself! Seem simple enough to tap a mag. I just didn't understand the concept of liquid gas, propane mags, and valves and how they work. Thanks to the help of the community I can get started and have fun doing so!

I'll make a post once I get started!

[Styrak]

Originally Posted by highny

Hey guys.

Thanks for the heads up. Didn't know propane mags actually transfer the liquid in. Always thought it was just gas...

That's why you fill mags upside down. Otherwise you would just get gas and only a few shots before it was empty.

[coach]

Originally Posted by Feddar

My stumbling block is getting somebody to drill the magazine's green gas valve to accept the adapter. Palmer told me I can do that myself, but without the proper tools and experience, it is easy to mess this up.

if you want to go back to using propane, get the adapters that replace the full valves. I'll post a link of where to get them when I dig it up.

Here is the site aZn_triXta posted: http://www.protec-ltd.com/bull_plug.aspx I ordered with white rabbit.

On classicairsoft, there's a thread about this and there is an adapter set from airsoft Taiwan: http://www.airsofttaiwan.com/goods.php?id=599 (for Marui gbb) but I don't see where to order extra adapters.

Personally, I'd just go with the palmers rig. I don't know much about the other ones yet.