Warning for KJW M700 users and game orgs

Im all for high fps limits, so long as we can determine its safe. Im gonna do pain test. And I think Stalker and I can do the range testing. We have 3 M700s right now to test with, Apoc has distance measureing tools and a chrony.
Give us some time to think something up and do some tests.

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by Droc

at point blank

its not a CQB weapon

I figure that at 200 feet, that 600fps M700 will feel like a springer from 20 feet.

Personally, I got no problem with a 600fps rifle so long as they dont engage within 100 feet or so. In that situation, its up to the field admin to see who is responsible to fallow engagment ranges with a gun that strong. No different then the admin making sure people dont take upgraded AEGs in a CQB house.

I think the sniper role is very important, but when snipers and AEG are seperated by 50fps...common, thats crazy. Lets allow the snipers to be snipers.

But before we do anything, lets see what the M700 can do. Lets hit goggles with the M700 on propane. I volunteer to wear by camo and be hit at differnt distances with the M700 on propane.

Before we all run for the hills when someone says 500fps, lets look at it. I been hit with 500fps at 60 feet. Ill tell you, a GBB in CQB is far worse. Lets see how it does with goggles. I been hit by 400fps, and 450fps, and I cant tell the difference. 600fps at 250 feet is nothing. I havent done the math, but im sure at a distance, its not that fast.

You do have a point about the decay of impact energy with increased range, but the the judgement that snipers would be uniformly diligent with minimum engagement range makes one wonder why snipers would bother with 6mm round pellets. Why not use a proper pellet gun and shoot lead target pellets?

My concern is not with ranged hits. My concern is that a very accessible powerful rifle is now easily available to a broad pool of players who might not all be very good with respecting minimum sniping distances.

Also, there isn't much information on how well 0.43g pellets carry their speed.

It is a requirement that goggles durably survive pellet strike at point blank. As to determining the effect of shots to the body at range, your volunteering could help greatly in determining safe sniping limits.:twisted:

[apocolypse]

Well, later on I'll try a point blank hit on a number of safty glasses and Bolle's with my M700 siting in the sun with propane and see what happens, as for getting hit anywhere else, ya it would hurt a bit, but I doubt it would do any damage.
I'll try that test later to.
I'm no stranger to pain, you should meet my ex! lol

[MMMiles!]

Originally Posted by apocolypse

as for getting hit anywhere else, ya it would hurt a bit, but I doubt it would do any damage.

Well, I've seen 530fps (@.20) w/ .30 embed itself under someone's lower lip, needed an emergency room visit to pop the bb out.
600+ could do more than just hurt a bit.

[Tankdude]

I'll wait for Droc's final verdict before I take this to a game with anything else besides duster.

Anything under 150 feet I'll to use my AUG, anything over is for the M700.

5.9992 joules over 500 fps rings a bell to me, but I forget why.

oh wait....

These are air guns with both a high muzzle velocity (greater than 152.4 meters or 500 feet per second) and a high muzzle energy (greater than 5.7 joules or 4.2 foot-pounds). The “muzzle velocity” is the speed of a projectile at the instant it leaves the muzzle of a gun, normally expressed in metres per second or feet per second. The “muzzle energy” is the energy of a projectile at the instant it leaves the muzzle of a gun, expressed in joules or foot-pounds. Air guns need to meet both standards to be classified as firearms for purposes of the Firearms Act.

I posted that little thing about the joules and fps, but no one caught on. Not even Grey.
Ignore this post, don't think anything about, it never happened.

In fact I never even typed it up and hit post.

[CDN_Stalker]

Distance was.............................?

EDIT: Question for you sensitive people out there. If an M700 spits out .2g BBs at around 550fps using propane, would you feel more comfortable knowing .25g BBs don't even pentrate a large McDonald's soft drink cup at 100ft? I know it's early in the testing, but I think too many people are being sucked into the "fear-mongering" that an airsoft gun shooting that fps at ANY range would hurt. Stopped by Apoc's after work and fired off a couple dozen rounds on his range, and when the cup actually got hit, it got knocked over like you pea shot it from 10ft away. Just want all to know that we're trying to break the misconception about fps vs distance. Should actually set up an after noon where we video tape the thing, use different wieghts of BBs (hehe, when my M24 was shooting upwards of 520fps before I make it field legal last year wouldn't even pop a balloon at 120ft with .36g BBs........... of course it wasn't fixed, but am clearing the air to some.)

Droc made a good point earlier..... if you are fine getting shot with a .25g BB from a 400fps AEG at 50ft, what's the issue with getting shot by a .36g BB shot at 100ft? Well, aside from the AEG shot hurting a bit more..............

[SockMonkey]

Jumping in here. The gun is fine as long as it adhears to any field limits. thats it, end of story. where i play its 500fps with a .20 bb on a bolt action rifle. any more and its not acceptable. if your field says 525fps with .25 great! gotta set a rule and thats it.

my discounted 2 cents.

[CDN_Stalker]

Appreciated from a player Monkey, thanks. I feel there has been a LOT of misconceptions about high limit guns, and I think this is the tim eto run some tests to see what is what and how different guns/velocities/distances compare to each other. Example is HJ's post above, says he is witness to a .3g BB getting imbedded in someone's lip, but never gave the range it was shot at. Could have been 30ft for all we know. BBs tend to drop rapidly in velocity after about 50ft, so beyond that it's comparable to other lesser fps guns at shorter ranges. Like Droc said, a .36g BB at 150ft from a 550fps gun might feel the same as a springer shooting a .2g BB from 20ft away. As long as the shooter of the sniper rifle is responsible enough to be tested on eyeballing distance, and is under the full responsability of having the discipline to not shoot someone under 70-100ft minimum engagement............. where's the issue really?

Now you have me thinking about how to measure the different impact of various velocities of different BB weights from different ranges. If all things being relative, then a springer shooting a .36g BB might feel the same as a 550fps bolt action shooting 550fps at 175ft. Interesting to sort out. I might try toset up some kind of test bed to try all this. Thinking a set weight moveable yet impregnatable diaphram set up with an accellerometer or something fancy like this.

[Shugart]

Wasn't the KJW gun designed for the Hong Kong and European Markets, where limits are set at 700FPS?

Also, not to add anohter variable into the equation, but what about 8mm BB's?

[CDN_Stalker]

Not all euro markets have that kind of limits. Look at anywhere on Arnie's Airsoft (UK), the legal limit is guns shooting 1J, which is roughly a .20g BB shooting at ~328fps.

[Grim Fandango]

I didn't want to post here earlier as i'm the one bringing these in and selling them, so i'm sure some people might view my thoughts as being a bit biased. However I do agree with Carl about game organizers taking more responsibility into chronoing (sp?) guns before games. And with gas guns, making sure whatever propellent is used in chronoing is used in gameplay as well. I don't think we need an exact warning on this specific rifle however. Their are other guns that shoot hot stock, yes they are probably more expensive and that might deter some new players, but i'm sure there are a few rich noobs who can afford the high priced hot rifles and might not be so responsible or well trained with safe sniping. I don't know who coined the phrase "500 FPS scare" but I don't think the word "scare" is needed. We have FPS limits for safety, not because we are afraid of being hurt. I started playing just after the AMC vs. Hot Shots games ended, but i've heard all the horror stories and seen a scar or two left by them. I'd be more scared of those games than somebody using a hot rifle safely on a field. As long as people that own these rifles know the safety rules and are trained in safe sniping then i'm fine playing with them. I notice every game i've been to, the organizer or host usually goes over the mercy rule and other safety measures. I think some time should be spent on teaching proper distance judgement. This is, I think, where problems and accidents can occur. Somebody with a 450 FPS (or whatever the field limit is where you are) gun shooting at people under 100 ft because they can't properly judge distance. Anyways that's my personal opinion.

P.S. I think we need another n00b camp style game. One where we can go over safe playing, distance judgement, FPS limits and such. We havn't had one in awhile and I think with the amount of new players we could use one.

[Grim Fandango]

Originally Posted by Shugart

Wasn't the KJW gun designed for the Hong Kong and European Markets, where limits are set at 700FPS?

Also, not to add anohter variable into the equation, but what about 8mm BB's?

The rifle is designed for 6mm BBs. To use 8mm BBs, you'd have to modify the barrel, chamber and the magazine. Possibly other parts too. Unless you meant like how do we chrono or categorize 8mm BB guns to be safe in field use, then I don't know. KJW is a taiwanese manufacturer, so i'm sure they design their guns for the taiwanese market. Not sure about the FPS limits they have over there, all I know is the HK players are facking crazy. Like I said in my last post, anybody that played during the AMC vs. Hot Shots games will know.

[MarpatMarps]

I wonder if accuracy differs when using duster vs propane...i'll experiment as soon as my scope comes in...

ps...i like ur dad's dog

I figure we do saftey glasses testing.
And Ill do the pain testing.

I figure if:
1. shooting 650--700fps at point blank range to saftey glasses of various types .

2. shooting 650-700fps at 70-150 feet at me wearing a t-shirt(and goggles of course).

I would say its safe for use over 100 feet is it does not break eye protection
and
no bleeders at all.

So, no broken glasses, or bleeders, Id say its safe for use at 100 feet and over.
If we gonna test, what else would you like to see? different distances? BB brands/weight?

[Lisa]

Originally Posted by CDN_Stalker

Not all euro markets have that kind of limits. Look at anywhere on Arnie's Airsoft (UK), the legal limit is guns shooting 1J, which is roughly a .20g BB shooting at ~328fps.

Unless things have changed recently UK bolt actions are not under this rule but are limited to stay under 16 Joules (12foot/lbs), now to skirmish it's to stay under 500 fps at .2

And the 1J rule is not really a legal limit, it's more of a limit that has been voluntarily accepted by most airsoft sites there.