PTW pricing to quality question

[Kid]

PTWs were cool, a couple years ago.

Now, people are trying to unload them by the bundle in the classifieds and they're not selling well, even at steep discounts. They're old news.

Just buy a GBBR and an AEG. Covered for summer and winters, you've always got a backup, and GBBRs are a hell of a lot more fun than a PTW. Plus, buying an AEG and a GBBR is going to be cheaper.

[KEVORKIAN]

Originally Posted by Death March

I havent had issues using my PTW in the rain,and all my other AEG's have been sitting for the past 3 plus years since I'v bought my PTW.

Ditto !

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by Kokanee

I don't think you'll get flamed over that, if anything the PTW enthusiast community would have loved a ready source of cheap, available spare parts. I certainly would love to be able to build a complete new upper (maybe spr etc) for use w/ a red cylinder, but the cost of ptw parts is prohibitive/availability it an issue.

The Celcius is/was a flop. They based their gun on the 2007 Gen 3 electronics, so they are susceptable to a spike killing the switch board. They also cloned the 490 motor, and cloned it's problems, but made it worse by cheaping out on parts.

There are more than a few guys who tried the Celcius on the PTW forums, and basically it is relegated to an emergency parts gun to make do until you get the Systema parts. Apparently, the quality of the parts is just awful, fit and finish and tolerances are terrible.

[Kokanee]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

The Celcius is/was a flop. They based their gun on the 2007 Gen 3 electronics, so they are susceptable to a spike killing the switch board. They also cloned the 490 motor, and cloned it's problems, but made it worse by cheaping out on parts.

There are more than a few guys who tried the Celcius on the PTW forums, and basically it is relegated to an emergency parts gun to make do until you get the Systema parts. Apparently, the quality of the parts is just awful, fit and finish and tolerances are terrible.

Ah righto, I was thinking more the externals, but fair point. I guess that highlights the usual reason sometimes items never make it to this market, the player base/free market speaks

[mcguyver]

This was posted yesterday on the PTW forums:

Originally Posted by TangoFighter

Yeah, I suppose that I did a pretty quick job of putting the kit together, but I have a bit more experience than most at fabrication. I do this general kind of thing more than I care to think about. Unfortunately, my day to day job does not involve airsoft, but it does involve making electronics and hardware to function at all costs all ...day ...long. :| I didn't even use the manual to do the assembly. 8-) ...Seriously.
As to the comparison between the CTW and the PTW, there isn't one. Having owned and fired both, the Systema completely eclipses the Celcius by a margin of 10 to 1. My CTW, (which is on the way back to the dealer for the second time in a month) felt like a pretty darned good AEG. In comparison, my PTW is a friggin' ferrari with a trigger. She is a real steel monster that coincidentally fires 6mm plastic. I own a whole lot of real steel, and I can honestly say that I will be spending a whole lot less time with my RS now. Why, you ask? Because at 25 yards (which is all that my local indoor shooting range offers), there is very little difference between shooting battery powered 6mm plasic, and 500 dollar a case 5.56mm, aside from the noise and cost. The CTW is not even close to being as accurate, reliable, and realistic as the PTW. I can shoot my PTW in my yard; hell in my bedroom! and get the same accuracy that I demand from a gun. None of my other airsoft guns give me that happiness. Don't get me wrong here; I own a couple of really nice and well tricked out AEG's. My KWA for example has a butt-load of gearbox mods and a tightbore with a trick hop up, etc... but it still feels like a toy gun. I can tell the difference with my eyes closed and 3 sheets to the wind. The Systema is just better. Much better. The CTW has an alloy outer barrel, stupid looking medium grey paint, and eats through batteries of all kinds like it was it's job. Now, I will confess that this is the first Systema that I have ever owned, and I might have just gotten lucky. If so, then fine. I'll still never buy another AEG, and my next airsoft gun will be another Systema.

[ThunderCactus]

I'm getting a G&P WOC M7A1, I hate how expensive the mags are, but it's an awesome gun

[Canadian Psycho]

I love my PTW, it doesn't really like the rain (got it soaked at claybank, built up some carbon on the selector board, took 15min to fix) But other then that its been great and well worth the money.

I would totally take a PTW over any GBBR, all weather reliability, don't have to deal with weather problems, ive seen GBBRs start the day at 400fps, and by noon end up at 650fps.

[ThunderCactus]

I'm sure there's a good way to make the PTW's more waterproof
The weather is a major issue with GBBR's

And actually, atleast in the case of the WE M16, I found the joule rating to be very consistent using different weights of ammo. Despite the fact it shoots 570fps on.2s lol

[WingZER0]

I've never been let down by my AEGs but I ran a P90 and a M249, so the M4/M16 users might have it different.

To be completely honest though, SystemA priced the PTW as they did because they knew people would buy it. Hell SystemA could have priced it $6000 and the same people probably would have STILL bought it. It's a little sad really when the company still has to cut corners at the $2000 price point.

[kullwarrior]

For Complete Detail Rant info:
See Here


Alright this is my show time woot!!!
Background info:
Own a PTW Gen IV Max
Own a G&P WOC (WOC13 M4 Steel Barrel) GBBR
Build and own a Prime-RA-Tech-G&P Magpul GBBR (one of those rare receiver in Canada, AFAIK only two are in Canada)
Build and own a G&P WOC Cansoft (WOC 16 M16 in Full auto) GBBR
own a Daytonagun AKS74U External Air GBBR (Now its converted to AKS74M)

Lets talk the easist one, Money
A GBBR depending upon quality will set you anywhere from 450 to 1500, but that's go with the standard WOC ($1040) which is what I would recommand for a Magna user or Standard KJW M4 (Approx. $800)
The magazine for Magna cost 45 for a G&P one or $50 for a Pro-Win, don't get anything other than those two as they are either too expensive/ heavy/ leaky/ unstable fps
KJW costs around $30.
Propane adapter cost around $25, 20lb Propane tank refiller adapter $25 (its worth it if you use GBBR as 20lb refill is alot cheaper than buying new 1lb everytime) And 3 propane tanks to get you started $15.

A PTW will set you back approx $1300 (used) to $2000 for new and battery cost approx $50 and charger $50. Then you need to replace the spring/ cylinder which is $20 for spring or $200 for cylinder. A mag cost $40 for a Systema or $30 for a Andax Works Lancer L5.

A Daytonagun (AK, ask Justin for the Ar-15 pricing) external air is gonna cost you $700 for a D-Boys Receiver or $800 for a LCT (these are scary realistic) and you need a regulator which cost around $150 as well as a tank CO2 ($40-$60)or HPA($150-$250) and the mag cost...around $10-$25 depending on the brand of AEG mags, G&P feeds supposedly the best which is $12 per pop

These are the price to begin with, assuming none of the gun or parts breakdown, a standard loadout of 6+1 mags the cost goes:
KJW Propane -Cheapest
Daytonagun External Air
G&P WOC Propane
Systema PTW Electric -Most Expensive

Now in terms of reliability...
Systema and Daytonagun are equal,
KJW is next with G&P WOC at the bottom

Soldier Firendly (Can you beat it, drag it through mud and sand)
Daytonagun is the best (I personally had mine Daytonagun buried in sand by accident in a game, besides ROF went from 800 to 650 it was mine. It took me an hour to clean all the sand out, it was literally everywhere, btw if you want to verify ask folks in Edmonton that attended Op Noobonia II they'll know)
Systema is next it loses in the fact without mod it's sensitive to moisture, if you toss it into the water, say goodbye to $300 worth of electronics
KJW is after due to the gas in mag is simply forbids tac reload and temperature will change the useability
G&P WOC is last simply it will destroy itself even under ideal condition.

In Terms of accuracy, out of the box,
PTW wins with Daytonagun (both has tightbore barrel 6.04mm and 6.03 respectively), then KJW (it has a M733 inner barrel in a M4 outer barrel) and WOC last (as it use a 210mm inner barrel to keep fps <380)

Noob-friendliness?
Right of the bat I'll say, I got G&P WOC13 first, Prime GBBR, PTW, WOC16, then Daytonagun and reading/ listening from user feedback.
G&P WOC- Good beginner choice if you are prepare to fix it
KJW M4 -Good beginner choice if you intend to mod it immediately to reduce fps via cradle airsoft fps reducer
Systema PTW -Good beginner choice if you don't mess or abuse with it. Money helps along the way
Daytonagun -Good beginner choice if you have a paintball tank already, this thing is basically baby proof. There's not alot of things you can do to make it stop shooting (destroying power source and/ or its relay system aka co2 tank and hose, run over with a tank, stick pointy end of BBQ sticks into the barrel as unjamming rod, flattening the nozzle) Any guns you want will stop shooting if you do what I mention above as well.

Pre-Game Upgrade requirement:
Systema PTW: Need to reduce the fps down via switching to M110/ M90 cylinder or spring (if you know how to change it)
KJW M4: Need to reduce the fps via cradle airsoft velocity reducer (~$30), full m4 length would be recommanded
G&P WOC: Doesn't need upgrade, I would suggest get a CQBR variant and keep inner barrel (especially tightbore) below 260mm or get NPAS (though those thing are will lead to replacement need as it self adjust as the vibration is too strong) I would recommand a Light weight Aluminium bolt carrier Element Light Weight, 5KU VLTOR, RA-Tech Lightweight, or Airsoft Surgeon VLTOR for gaming to increase gas efficiency from barely 1 mag into two in prowin (on auto) Spare nozzle or Aluminium nozzle would also be a good idea.
Daytonagun, NONE inner barrel is already tighbore, you can adjust fps via regulator

Originally Posted by L473ncy

If I had 2K in the bank I'd go with Classic Airsoft.

Finally there's someone that doesn't go
OM*G YOU HAVE TO HAVE A HOSE STICKING OUTTA YOUR GUN?!? AND CARRYING A F******G TANK? (BTW, in my last skirmish half the ppl didn't realize I was running external air until I start firing in auto as suppressive fire.

In Summary,
If you're Rich (Budget w/ $2500+) Get a PTW
If you're a tinkerer and a DIY fixer get a G&P WOC
If you're a fascist in realism get a KJW M4
If you are in between of all those above or not, get a Daytonagun


Oh btw, don't shoot External Air outside when sun sets, it's really really loud, I would say around 100dbs

[swatt13]

hmm nuff said i guess. kullwarrior for the win! ding ding ding!

[Sicyon]

Possibly off topic, but what models does Systema produce? I know of M4/M16 and variants, and I've heard of MP5s but what else?

Better question, have they produced an AK yet?

[kullwarrior]

Originally Posted by Sicyon

Possibly off topic, but what models does Systema produce? I know of M4/M16 and variants, and I've heard of MP5s but what else?

Better question, have they produced an AK yet?

Let see...
Gen 1 M16A3 ONLY
Gen 2... same
Gen 3 M4, CQBR, M16
Gen 4 MAX M4 CQBR M16, MP5 (Gen 3)
GEN 5 SUPER MAX M4 M16 MP5 (Gen 4 MAX)

yea real advancement eh?

As for AK, when pigs fly, they're making training guns for force on force swats and alike, afaik, no Police department issues (county ones you can buy your own, in some cases ak) AK or any variant prescribe in our lovely-retarded firearms act. Don't bring the What about OPFOR, afaik they don't care.

[mcguyver]

The MP5 is discontinued, and parts are no longer being produced.

[Sicyon]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

The MP5 is discontinued, and parts are no longer being produced.

Wow, so much for variety