Why is the M4 so popular?

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Sergeantmajor

something "revolutionary" is coming.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Hillary Clinton shooting lazers!!

F*ing Hilarious man!

[Azathoth]

Originally Posted by tunabreath

Just a note for people who figure that the Hk416 is so much better than the M4 because it's more reliable, I suggest you look at the extreme dust conditions reliability test again.

ZOMG, the 10 M4s had 4 times the number of stoppages compared to the 10 416s! But how much is 4 times?
The stoppage percentages for the 416 were 0.3883%, and for the M4, 1.47%
Ok, one and a half in a hundred seems pretty bad eh?
Note that the extreme conditions test really was EXTREME, as in a hell of a lot more than any rifle should be subjected to in service (if it manages to get that must dust, there's more wrong than just the rifle). These rifles fired 600 rounds each before cleaning. The average combat loadout is what? About half that? The rifles were cleaned then HEAVILY lubed before going back into the dust chamber. They are purposely TRYING to make these rifles fail, to see their limits. They are comparing the engineering of the guns, NOT their effectiveness in the hands of a soldier.
An M4 in service is going to see FAR less than 1.5% failure rates.
I expect that even if you were to replace every single M4 in service with an Hk416, not a single thing would change in the daily life of your average soldier, beyond having to learn how to clean/clear the new guns.

I agree with the governments in question's general consensus of waiting for something more revolutionary.
*just another thing, it's not like the Hk416 is the best option. There are plenty of similar upper conversions, pretty much all of them being less expensive. I keep hearing really good things about the respective Patriot Ordnance Factory upper.

As a note the previous test conducted by the same organization found that the M4 jammed only ~1.5-2.5 times as many time as the HK416. They have since concluded that the experiment is bad. If you remember from your high school sciences, if it can not replicated consistently it's not real science.

Statistics can lie. I have a Honours degree in Econometrics, (minor in game theory, AND Statistics). I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of statistics that you see are designed with a bias to prove a point.

For you people griping about armies and weapons. Canadians probably do not know this but in the US it is legislated that all Small Arms bidding and construction is heavily favoured towards American Manufacturers. No matter how bad an Made in USA weapon is it must be allowed to be compete against top prototypes in a competition.

In short, the HK416 is an excellent weapon, as is the M4/M16 series of weapons. It is a fact that the M4/M16 Class of weapons are amongst the most successful weapons of ALL TIME.

[sigsour]

by Gumby
Giving someone a hard time because the like the particluar weapon (for whatever reason) and chose to model their AEG on their preference is childish.

Just in case that comment was mistakenly attributed to me, let me point out that I have never given anyone a hard time about their choice of weapon. Discussion about motivations (to learn more) is not the same as giving people a hard time. In order to get into the meat of motivations, one often has to dig deep and counter points to unravel deeper meaning. This is all part and parcel of the process of investigation and education - and this is a good thing.

[Gumby]

Roger that sigsour, Its not for you at all. That was a generalised statement, I suppose I could have specified. This one is for you though, no disrespect intended, but if this is going to turn into a pissing match in any way, then I humbly request that you make your comments via PM, to avoid muddying up this thread any further.

Again, to clarify, no disrespect intended for anyone.

[sigsour]

while we're on the subject of popularity - why do people like Glocks so much? It's not standard issue for the American military (whom so many are fond of citing), and it's not the prettiest of guns. Just curious.

[Bowers]

Originally Posted by sigsour

while we're on the subject of popularity - why do people like Glocks so much? It's not standard issue for the American military (whom so many are fond of citing), and it's not the prettiest of guns. Just curious.

it may not be a standard military arm but its very popular in police work and well tv

[Blackthorne]

Originally Posted by sigsour

while we're on the subject of popularity - why do people like Glocks so much? It's not standard issue for the American military (whom so many are fond of citing), and it's not the prettiest of guns. Just curious.

They are simple, easy to use and take a great deal of abuse with little maintainance.

They are dirt cheap.


Just becasue something is used by the military doesn't mean it's the best choice. They have allot of logistical momentum to overcome when changing a weapons platform, so the decision doesn't always come down to performance. Look at the Elcan/C79 series of optics (I poste don this in another thread).

From personal experience, in a fighting pistol, Glocks are fine weapons that perform without malfunction in realistic settings.

[Lakonian]

Originally Posted by Blackthorne

They are simple, easy to use and take a great deal of abuse with little maintainance.

They are dirt cheap.

From personal experience, in a fighting pistol, Glocks are fine weapons that perform without malfunction in realistic settings.

That, and they feel amazing.

[sigsour]

it's just confusing. All this schpiel about getting decked out with military spec equipment, and now it's about "feel", "ease of use and maintenance"? Weren't they the arguments I used against the M4?

[swatt13]

Originally Posted by Deftonius

Because it's got what Airsofters crave... It's got electrolytes!

its got what plants need!

[TokyoSeven]

Originally Posted by swatt13

its got what plants need!

and Ive never seen a plant grow out of a toilet!

[Lakonian]

Originally Posted by sigsour

it's just confusing. All this schpiel about getting decked out with military spec equipment, and now it's about "feel", "ease of use and maintenance"? Weren't they the arguments I used against the M4?

Uhmm.. The AR feels good, and is pretty easy to maintain aswell. I don't see where you're going with this.

[Danke]

Originally Posted by sigsour

it's just confusing. All this schpiel about getting decked out with military spec equipment, and now it's about "feel", "ease of use and maintenance"? Weren't they the arguments I used against the M4?

Are we bake to talking about an Airsoft M4 vs an Airoft 416 and what's easier to handle and maintain or back to real ones again? Because if it's AS then they're identical other that the cosmetics.

I have a VFC 416

Vs. the VFC SCAR

I would like to trot through the bush with both at hand since they're so nice. For hands down hands on I'd pick the SCAR. It's selector switch has a shorter throw, the mag release and selector are on both sides and the stock has the adjustable cheek rest so all fine tuning to get it just the way I like.

Now someone who's just spent 20 years of their life building muscle memory around a M4 would most likely not want a SCAR, and might pick the 416 since it's feel is like what they're used to.

[sigsour]

where I'm going with this is simple. I started off with the discussions about why people prefer the M4. Obviously we're not talking purely about airsoft - since they're all the same. We're talking about why people choose to role-play being decked out in an M4 when there are problems with it.

So then, the most convincing answer is that most of the first world's military uses it (and "I want to roleplay a soldier from one of these forces"), because there is no compelling reason why if you're given any budget in some fantasy Special Ops unit, why you would say - "just give me an $800 M4A1 thanks"! I thought that since airsoft IS about roleplay, that one would fulfill that fantasy by being decked out in equipment that would simulate that "fantasy Special Ops unit" - kind of like the movies.

I've been told I'm wrong about that.

However, to follow that logic would be to ask "well hang on - then why do people like the Glock so much?" Now all of a sudden, those very arguments I used against the M4 are used to support the Glock. Suddenly it's about the feel and reliability of the gun.

So we admit that there are more reliable guns out there than the M4, but we like it because the American and Canadian forces use it, but we like the Glock because it's a reliable gun? That's the confusing part.

[Tex]

hey bud the horse is dead.