Reducing trigger lag

[JourneyMan]

Trigger lag annoys me so much that I have decided to make it Part 2 of my Razor Tune project for my P90. This is what I have so far:

The gun will absolutly not exceed 350fps ever, hell, I may not even replace the stock spring
I have replaced Tamyia connectors with Deans
batt is a 8.4 with G&P 1100mAh NiMH cells, I will not use any other battery
I like my ROF where it is now, a little more or less is acceptable, but I really don't want a drastic change

I 90% sure that having alot of torque is the solution, so this is what I'm thinking:
Def. a motor change. Eagle Force 1300 stands out to me
Torque up gears, I'm interested in how much they would couteract the new motor

Does a vented piston head really effect this?
What if I got a set of bearing bushings and replaced the 2 sets of bushing that are round in the V6 gearbox?

*cue ILLusion*

[JT_10111]

trigger lag is when you pull and the gun fires like .3 seconds after you pull it, correct?

1: the gun's motor has to compress the spring
2: the motor has to decompress the spring/piston
3: then the compressed air fires the BB

(Not sure if this is what your talking about, but if it is, I don't really think there is a way to remedy this, besides of course the PSG-1 motor, its backwards, so it cuts the firing cycle time down drastically by eliminating the initial compression phase.)

[JourneyMan]

Yes, thats what I mean.

And thats not quite how it morks. Step 2 doesn't exist, the gears pull back the piston until the last tooth, where the piston is freed from the gears, and the force of the spring causes it to move foward.

I'm thinking the higher torque will cut down on the time it takes to pull the spring back, since the motor is so much stronger. Kinda reverse of how using a stronger spring causes your motor to work harder to pull the spring back, causing increased lag and lowered ROF.

[The Saint]

Can one actually reduce the trigger lag without affecting ROF? I mean, the faster the spring is compressed and released, the less lag between each shot. The end product is a higher ROF.

[JourneyMan]

Well, I can live with higher ROF if I have too, but I was counting on the Torque Up gears to cancel some of that out.

ILLusion did something similar to his P90 I believe, and I was wondering if there were people who tried a different approach to this.

Ooo, would that Prometheus wiring stuff help with this much, or would the Deans connectors be enough to remove the noticeable resistance in the wiring setup?

[Mantelope]

You can't reduce trigger lag without increase ROF. The two are inversely proportional. The motor will help both your lag and the ROF, but the torque up gears will nullify whatever benefit you got. Vented piston head will have no effect. Bearing bushings will also increase ROF, decreasing lag.

Your best option is to go with a J-battery. You can probably get a 9.6V 2500mAh one for less than $60 to your door. Your ROF will go through the roof and you'll see a gigantic decrease in lag.

[Brakoo]

I used to have a 10.8v with Systema high speed gear in my M4 and I only shot on semi but trigger lag was not something I knew about. As Harley said you can't get one without the other one, they come in a package.

[JohnnyDo]

I have a 10.8v battery with standard Guarder gears and I have almost no trigger lag .. the ROF is insane.

The guys above are correct, the time it takes your motor to compress the spring and repeat is the ROF. You must increase the ROF to decrease the lag your talking about.

- high voltage battery
- high speed gears
- ball bearings
- faster motor
- good shim job (obvious thing here as too tight and the gears/motor have a harder time moving.

[ILLusion]

I have the eagle force 1300 and it definitely increased ROF. If you don't want a ROF increase, don't get an eagle force 1300.

If you want faster trigger time, you'll have to increase motor response time... which, unfortunately, means higher ROF.

Torque up gears will slow down your ROF, and thus, your trigger response time.

Vented piston head won't make a much markedly noticeable difference, but it does help a bit.

I've done exactly what you mentioned with the bearings. It helps a bit as well.

Recommended: Get a set of Prometheus gears. They have five anti-reversal nodes on the bevel gear, rather than 2 or 4. This helps the gears lock the piston in a further back position, reducing the next shot's wind up travel distance & ultimately, the time required.

I run this exact setup with a KM 90M spring, Prometheus double-torque gears, KM cylinder, systema aluminum piston head, systema red piston and a 600mAh Nicad battery. Freshly charged battery, my P90 screams and has a faster trigger response time than any of my other guns. However, ROF is also much higher.

I chose to do it this way because I wanted to stick with an 8.4v NiCd battery without having to do any destructive mods to the stock. Hence, J-batteries were out of the question. I can get out about 1000 rounds with this setup before the battery poops out.

[bruce]

AirsoftMechanics has an article and guide on improving RoF by using MOSFET switches and capacitors.

http://www.airsoftmechanics.com/articles.php

[JourneyMan]

ILLUsion, do you have any problems with the spring being partially compressed all of the time, or do you have a neat trick for decompressing it? And is the reasoning behind the torque gears solely to increase your batt life?

I was wanting to keep my ROF around 900 RPM because that is the RS P90 has, but I would rather have the reduced responce time.

I was thinking that since the spring is the major force opposing the the motor/gear set, that if I massivly increased the torque of the motor/gear set it would be nothing for the motor/gearset to pull back the piston, thus giving me my reduced responce time. Guess that would increase ROF since I now have a reduced time for the clynder cycle, and thus I can have more cycles per minute.


I tried :sad:

[bruce]

Maybe there is a way to modify the switch assembly so that when you're depressing the trigger to shoot semi, it'll come in contact with a wire contact that is set for a 9.6V. Pulling it further back will let the switch contact a separate wire contact that will be set for a 8.4V. You'll have to run an additional wire from the battery pact to give you the 2 different voltages of 8.4V for lower RoF and a 9.6V for the boost in reducing trigger lag time. The second wire will be soldered to the seventh cell.

I'm not sure if it'll work because I don't have a P90 anymore but in principle, it could work.

[JourneyMan]

Now thats an idea, but I have no place to store another cell. My P90 is absolutly straped for space as it is, and I'm going to foam the gearbox after the internal upgrades are in place.

I am liking the idea of capaciters though, I could probably fit a series of mall ones onto the side of my gearbox. The only problem is I'm a bit worrid about how much heat they would give off, since with the foam it would have no way out.

[mcguyver]

Capacitors don't generate any heat at all. I'm skeptical about their use for increasing ROF as you would need a large capacitance to bring the lagging current from motor inductance to unity. A smaller capacitance will just increase net power factor, but will still have enough lagging current (coupled with a small battery) to really offer small improvement and not worth the time and expense, IMHO. And remember that capacitors in a DC system will store energy indefinately unless drained, which will be a manual procedure as capacitors in AC systems get drained during current reversal. Stored energy like that can be a potential danger, not to you per se, but if accidentally shorted or reversed polarity, may explode, destroying your gun.

The idea of using different tap points on a battery will work, but you'll need a 3rd contact point on you switch to make it work. You would have 1 common output to motor, 1 tap for 8.4v and 1 tap for 9.6v. Too much work and mods to make it worthwhile IMHO. Look at an automotive relay or a 2 pole switch as this is the type of switching you'll need.

[ILLusion]

No, I don't have the concern of my spring being partially compressed. If it compresses it a bit, I can't imagine it compressing it by more than half. You can hear how compressed it is. The shots usually alternate between full decompression and half-cocked. When either one fires, you can kind of hear how far back it wound from the momentum.

When I originally did this setup and chronied it, it hit an average of 315fps. That was 2 years ago (I think.) I just chronied it right now and it was shooting an average of 320fps with a high of 326. I can't explain the variance. It could be because I have a different chrony.

I will have another chrony in about 3 weeks that can also measure ROF. I can let you know what the ROF is at that time.

Yes, the main purpose of the double-torque up gears was to conserve battery power. Its secondary purpose was to slow down the ROF.

Originally Posted by JourneyMan

ILLUsion, do you have any problems with the spring being partially compressed all of the time, or do you have a neat trick for decompressing it? And is the reasoning behind the torque gears solely to increase your batt life?

I was wanting to keep my ROF around 900 RPM because that is the RS P90 has, but I would rather have the reduced responce time.

I was thinking that since the spring is the major force opposing the the motor/gear set, that if I massivly increased the torque of the motor/gear set it would be nothing for the motor/gearset to pull back the piston, thus giving me my reduced responce time. Guess that would increase ROF since I now have a reduced time for the clynder cycle, and thus I can have more cycles per minute.


I tried :sad: