How old should you really be?

[Mav_14]

Unfortunatly living in the Comox Valley airsoft is not as popular as we would like it to be which leads to the main hurdle of finding a place to play. Not to mention the organizing of a group that can opperate within all rules of the law. Something we tried but as was brought to our attention we failed miserably. Fortunatly we ceased all opperations without any accidents or lawsuits. There are organized groups on the island however it is usually atleast a 2 hour drive to where current games are being held and not everyone has the time or transportation to attend.
Forgive us for attempting to create a group in which we could get out and play more often than once a month. Everyone involved is very new to airsoft so mistakes are bound to happen. Fortunatly with all your help we are able to learn from our mistakes to help create an enjoyable and legal airsoft group.

[Ricochet]

We appreciate forthrightness. Unfortunately the bottom line is just that; the bottom line. Lack of appropriate players, or appropriate place to play means you don't play.

We live in a small community ourselves. There are actually quite a few airsoft players here, but we've been at it for ten years now. We also have two advantages over most other places. For starters we have a larger, average income than most places in the country here in Alberta. We are also surrounded by farmland; some of which are incredibly expansive. Basically everyone knows someone who owns a lot of private property.

You do live in BC though; I'm sure you can find somewhere more appropriate to play. It's important to avoid the public at all costs. You must eliminate the chance of running into hikers, people walking their dogs, etc. Private property is really the only way to go.

[K3vX]

Well, as a new player, I don't have any experience on the fields, I feel like I still can add my two cents.

I'm 19 years old and my brother is 15. He is the kind of guy that I would allow on the field even if he's under the age most people find acceptable. He can and will be mature with his weapons, will follow the rule and be a member that can help a community grow.

BUT.

I live with my brother since he's born, and I saw him evolve with weapons for a few years. THAT is the reason why I can judge he's able to get along in a field.

The point is. Yes, sometimes younger people can be mature and everything. But I personally think it's safe to assume he's NOT mature enough and put an age cap, which for me would be 17 or 18. It's not because my own brother is mature enough to play airsoft safely, that I think he should be allowed to the field. The weapons are, here, in nearly any shops, and everywhere online 18+. And I agree with that.

Kids should be taught how to handle a weapon, how to carry it and how to safely use it way before he's 18. But it should be via a mentor (in the case of my brother, me), and they should not be allowed to POSSESS a weapon themselves, but rather use the one of an older friend or people that they know.

If you read everything, thank you. That's simply my opinion, feel free to think I'm wrong.

[Ricochet]

Your not wrong about your brother being possibly mature enough, or that youths should be taught weapon safety. However that isn't the point. I don't care if a youth shoots an airsoft gun while being supervised by his parents; but shooting at another individual, or getting shot at is a legal liability matter. No amount of intelligence or maturity can circumvent that fact. It has nothing to do with maturity, experience, wisdom, attitude, ability, etc.

I would rather play airsoft with my younger brother whom I know is mature, and will always follow the safety rules, than some of the rejects I've run into on the field. This is not an attack kids thread, and ASC's eighteen plus general policy is not because we don't like them.

The youths coming into airsoft will be our airsoft future, and need guidance. They also need to have understanding and respect. It's funny that an excited and "apparently mature" youth will disagree that they should have to wait to play airsoft. This only reinforces the maturity issue, as true maturity "only" comes from understanding and experience; and although not all maturity and experience is equal when crossing the age of majority line, it "is" our national legal standard.

In fact the only issue that matters in age versus airsoft (and it's been said numerous times before), is legal age. Until there is a regulating body for youths in the sport, to enforce adequate safety gear, adequately safe game areas, adequate amounts of referees, etc; then it's mostly just kids that don't have the maturity to understand they "have to wait", airsoft fields that make money off of risking kids, and "mostly" parents that don't understand the risks and who signed a document that put their kids safety at risk. Not to mention you now have someone on the field who has no legal liability to themselves shooting projectiles at others.

Who has the right to perpetrate this situation? The answer at the moment, is no one. Until there is a legal safety standard for kids and airsoft to control minimum gear requirements, FPS limits, safe areas to play, etc, then it's just what it looks like. I don't know what's worse, the parents who put their kids at risk, or those who fill their head with fluff saying that there is no risk, and make money off of it.

[K3vX]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

Ricochet says stuff...

Yeah, I agree. Maybe I was not clear. I meant that while I acknowledge that SOME kids may be mature enough to play, there still should be a minimum age, as we CANNOT judge case by case. Because as you said, it's still a dangerous activity involving weapons that can make serious damage in certain circumstances.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by K3vX

Yeah, I agree. Maybe I was not clear. I meant that while I acknowledge that SOME kids may be mature enough to play, there still should be a minimum age, as we CANNOT judge case by case. Because as you said, it's still a dangerous activity involving weapons that can make serious damage in certain circumstances.

That's why most places have adopted 18+ only to avoid headaches and liability issues but keep in mind there are some 18+ crowd in this hobby where I wouldn't trust them even with a super soaker.

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by wildcard

That's why most places have adopted 18+ only to avoid headaches and liability issues but keep in mind there are some 18+ crowd in this hobby where I wouldn't trust them even with a super soaker.

That's why I like invite only games. Stop inviting players and teams that cause issues. Adults can more easily be held accountable for their own actions.

[Janus]

Originally Posted by K3vX

Well, as a new player, I don't have any experience on the fields, I feel like I still can add my two cents.

I'm 19 years old and my brother is 15. He is the kind of guy that I would allow on the field even if he's under the age most people find acceptable. He can and will be mature with his weapons, will follow the rule and be a member that can help a community grow.

BUT.

I live with my brother since he's born, and I saw him evolve with weapons for a few years. THAT is the reason why I can judge he's able to get along in a field.

Wait, what?

Between that and your inability to discern the reality that "maturity" has nothing to do with liability and accountability, you have placed yourself squarely in the category of people who cannot judge on this basis.

Rethink. Retry.

[K3vX]

Sadly you're right. That's why I should reread myself more closely before posting

Let me retry.

What I meant is, even if I consider from what I have seen and read on the net, particulary this forum, that my younger brother COULD be allowed on a field and not stir trouble, people below 18 years old SHOULD NOT be allowed on the field.

Because while a lot of people may know rightfully or wrongfully, and I'm not excluding myself from the wrong, someone younger that they think would not cause trouble, it's up to the leaders to decide if it's true. And, excluding the fact that the leader could disregard safety for money, it takes a lot more time to judge if someone is ready for a field, than it takes for an unfortunate event to happen.

When I specified I know my brother's behavior with safety from many years, I meant it's something you CANNOT judge quickly. I never meant to say he was better than anyone else.

That is the reason why an age cap MUST exist. Not everyone after 18 is safe enough for the field, but it filters a lot of people prone to pose problem, and ensure no legal issues will be raised if an accident was to happen.

I hope I'm clear enough this time :-)

[Danke]

If you're not your brother's guardian you can't sign off for him. This isn't a case of M4 vs. AK where opinions count.

[Ricochet]

It's a legal issue ...legal ...like a law or something ...almost like an enforced rule written in stone; where feelings and opinions don't matter, and won't be taken into account...

Clear as mud?

Also try: policy, statute, legislation, restriction, mandate, code, commandment, decree, enactment, regulation, etc...

[K3vX]

Originally Posted by Danke

If you're not your brother's guardian you can't sign off for him. This isn't a case of M4 vs. AK where opinions count.

Then I failed to be clear. I said. I DON'T WANT him on a field.
I said before: People below 18 years old SHOULD NOT be allowed on the field.
I don't want him to be on the field, trust me.
I said he could be accepted.
I also said that it's NOT something you can judge quickly.
Therefore, I said he MUST NOT be allowed.

Originally Posted by Ricochet

It's a legal issue ...legal

To what I'll refer to what I just said: [...] and ensure no legal issues will be raised [...]

I was just trying to bring my point of view in a more ''fashionable'' matter, another side.

I clearly failed.

I just wanted to start posting some things so I'm not a total unknown guy once I try to go on a field.
I hope next time we agree on something

[Ricochet]

No, you were clear. It's simply blurred lines that get people into a debate. Although a strong guideline, age isn't always synonymous with maturity. It's not terribly difficult to judge someone's maturity and capability levels at all. There are always several factors to take into consideration, but it has nothing to do with any of them in the end. It's the way you say things. Such as, "a kid shouldn't play because they are not, or will not be mature"; or "my field is safe for youth, and I am an appropriate judge of this"; and "the parents signed a waiver, so everything is okay". None of those statements are true necessarily.

You can't have a maturity debate when it's only a foot note of the bigger picture. Safety as well; although important, isn't any more than a part of the puzzle. It's simply a legal issue and legal responsibilty issue; that's it, that's all.

I don't play airsoft with youths because of the general level of maturity along with a few other things. That's a personal issue, and does not diminish their ability to play, or mine to accommodate the proper safety to incorporate them in game; we are simply an eighteen plus club.

I think there are many youths who could play airsoft safely, and maybe they should be able to play. There are also people on here who field youths, and have probably taken the proper precautions and liabilities to "reasonably" keep them safe; and if you do, good for you. But there are those who think that it's readonable to field youths because they feel justified, assume they know better, depend on the money, or need the numbers to play; these people are wrong in what they do.

I hope that some forthright individuals get together one day and start a proper league or standard for kids to play. A governing body that covers things like Safety equipment, safe play areas, FPS limitations, and insurance for kids in the sport. Call it something like N.A.Y.A. (National Association for Yourh in Airsoft), as an example. Get some legislation in place to govern places that allow kids to play, and have a national standard of safety and liability; much like there is in hockey, football, etc.

Until that happens, it's a legal issue where the kids are at risk; and a bunch of adults and parents that either don't care, or think they know better.

[Danke]

Good on you then, don't forget this is not airsoftK3vX.com so while at times the advice may be personal it's also worded in a general way.

When a new player reads this thread a year from now the salient points will carry over and answer their questions also.

[K3vX]

Originally Posted by Danke

Don't forget this is not airsoftK3vX.com [...]

That made me laugh actually , but I get you point.

Ricochet, I'm glad I was clear, and happy you clarified the issue you guys were having with what I said. I agree with everything you said, so I'll just go visit another thread right now. Thanks for taking your time to answer like you did.