Range question

[danelen]

My field chronos .25g BBS, so I am referring to 400fps using them. So wait a minute, the barrel length dosnt have anything to do with the distance?? Dosnt make a ton of sense to me but if thats the case then I guess I could get away with a shorter gun. And there is a lot of talk about good consistency based from compression, how do I guarantee this with my gun?

[Skladfin]

Originally Posted by Amos

The hop-up effect eliminates the whole "SHOOT AS FAST AND HARD SO IT'LL GO FURTHER BEFORE GRAVITY MAKES IT DROP" ideology here.

If you're gun is putting the proper amount of air (every time) down the barrel the BB will be riding on the same air every time, people with major air leaks or an inconsistent sealing piston head will not have sufficient air to push the BB out of the barrel properly so there's a chance it'll contact the barrel and greatly effect range/accuracy.

understandable. But what you are saying is, a 250 FPS consistent gun, will consistently shoot up to 150feet maximum(For example). But if a 400FPS gun is also just as consistent, with the good choice of hop up parts, will go to(for abstract example), 200feet maximum.

Because do you not also agree that,

a 50 FPS gun will shoot farther than a 10 FPS gun? That is pretty much common sense, even if the hop up is doing its proper job, the result is quite clear.

[Amos]

There's a ridiculous amount of variables in all of this -- I'm not saying FPS plays NO effect in range, I'm just saying that it's not as important of a factor in the way that people think it is.

You originally never stated anything about how the guns were built, you simply said:

Originally Posted by Skladfin

FPS + Hop up(Setting) + BB = Range

FPS does play a small part in range, but not nearly as much as a good BB, hop-up and compression parts do.

[L473ncy]

Originally Posted by danelen

My field chronos .25g BBS, so I am referring to 400fps using them. So wait a minute, the barrel length dosnt have anything to do with the distance?? Dosnt make a ton of sense to me but if thats the case then I guess I could get away with a shorter gun. And there is a lot of talk about good consistency based from compression, how do I guarantee this with my gun?

Sorry, in Canada (and most other places I know of) we usually measure using .20's so if you chrono doing .25's then that's fine and dandy. You're aiming for 1.86 Joules then (about 450 on .20's). Which in that case may be dangerous for most guns due to higher stresses placed on the internals (but if it can handle it then that's all good).

Also use .28's and bring it down to 375, you'll see a drastic improvement in accuracy. And when you get a hop up rubber you'll want to use a "hard" rubber such as the Prometheus Hard or other comparable stiff rubber.

[ThunderCactus]

Amos is right, Skladfin usually doesn't know what he's talking about anyway

barrel length has absolutely NOTHING to do with range, OR ACCURACY
It's meaningless. It has no bearing what so ever.
What matters is COMPRESSION, and QUALITY.

You can have a 650mm 6.08 G&P barrel in a gun with a full upgraded prometheus mechbox, and I guarantee you it won't shoot as nice as the same gun with a 247mm prometheus 6.03 barrel.

Case and point, my stock HFC beretta, with a barrel shorter than 160mm, could outrange, and was more accurate, than a stock TM VSR-10. It shot as well as some well upgraded AEG's

My TM VSR-10 has a 430mm barrel, it had the exact same upgrades as Amos' VSR-10 at the time, except he had a 650mm barrel and an extra 70fps on me. Guess what? We got the same accuracy, and he got about another 15 feet of range on me with that extra 70fps.

Barrel length means nothing in spring guns and AEG's.
Your BB never actually hits the side of the barrel, the compressive forces keep your BB centered down the length of the barrel. So the longer your barrel is, the more air you need to keep it centered, and the longer you NEED to keep it centered, the greater chance of something going wrong with the air current or with barrel defects or with dirt in the barrel.

[Skladfin]

Originally Posted by Amos

There's a ridiculous amount of variables in all of this -- I'm not saying FPS plays NO effect in range, I'm just saying that it's not as important of a factor in the way that people think it is.

You originally never stated anything about how the guns were built, you simply said:

yes because whether compression is perfect or not -

400FPS + hop up effect + BB = 200 feet

same gun, next shot = bad compression, so it shoots 380FPS instead of 400

380FPS + hop up effect + BB = 190 feet

then how would that differ from a gun that is consistently shooting @ 380FPS?

You see, a G&G cansoft has terrible seal with their piston heads, which I believe you agree with. They shoot at about 360 FPS out of the box with that horrendous seal. However, it shoots just as far as any other 360FPS guns with the same BBs and hop up setting, compression isn't playing a factor here.

However, as you said, if the compression is good, then it will shoot at a higher FPS, which for example, would be 380FPS. Then in which case, yes, it will go farther.

But rather, that is ultimately the FPS that is playing the factor no?

Consistency is just consistency, it doesn't make the BB go any farther. It's like saying you hit a nail with your hammer with the same force repeatedly, but that does not make each swing stronger.

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Amos is right, Skladfin usually doesn't know what he's talking about anyway

really now?

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

barrel length has absolutely NOTHING to do with range, OR ACCURACY
It's meaningless. It has no bearing what so ever.

and right away you just repeat my first presented idea. So do you agree with me or disagree?

[ThunderCactus]

disagree, because I've actually SEEN it working.
A guarder AK at 310fps can outrange a poorly tuned VSR-10 at 470fps.
My G3SG-1 at 360fps outranges an HFC VSR-10 at 470fps
My HFC beretta at 290fps outranges any stock CA, G&P and TM AEG
My UMP shooting 280fps with nothing more than a hopup rubber and a cylinder set outranges a fully upgraded systema AEG.

Hopup rubbers don't make up for fault in the system, they just help the gun get more range. If you don't have proper compression, the gun can't recenter the BB in the barrel after it hits the hopup rubber and your range suffers greatly.

It's not about FPS, it's about COMPRESSION, they're two entirely different concepts. The stability of your BB on it's way out the gun as opposed to the velocity of the BB. And it's the whole reason why a fully upgraded sniper rifle will always out shoot a fully upgraded AEG. Better compression wins every time.

[TokyoSeven]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

My UMP shooting 280fps with nothing more than a hopup rubber and a cylinder set outranges a fully upgraded systema AEG.

Cactus wins the discussion, that UMP doesn't even have a spring in it and it outranges systemas upgraded AEGs.

[krap101]

I'm wondering, has either theory been proven? Some people say that tightbores work because the bb has more time to bounce around, and in a tighter barrel, the bb will end up more accurate because of the angle of each bounce. Other people are saying that there's a cushion of air that keeps the bb from hitting the sides, but if so, what was the point of the twist barrels? I'm not trying to disprove or prove either one, but has anyone actually cut open a barrel or done anything to "scientifically" show what happens inside a barrel, or are both still speculation?

[Skladfin]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

disagree, because I've actually SEEN it working.
A guarder AK at 310fps can outrange a poorly tuned VSR-10 at 470fps.
My G3SG-1 at 360fps outranges an HFC VSR-10 at 470fps
My HFC beretta at 290fps outranges any stock CA, G&P and TM AEG
My UMP shooting 280fps with nothing more than a hopup rubber and a cylinder set outranges a fully upgraded systema AEG.

I wouldn't know because all my guns have good compression with 4~5FPS consistency.

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

It's not about FPS, it's about COMPRESSION, they're two entirely different concepts.

They are two entirely different concepts. Of course

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

The stability of your BB on it's way out the gun as opposed to the velocity of the BB.

I'm sorry what?

so if the BB leaves the barrel with more stability, then it will go farther? Okay then, think about this.

A baseball pitcher pitches the ball @ 140km/hr. It isn't stable at all, of course not, there isn't any barrel to guide it or anything. It isn't stable for shit. So according to you, the ball that he just threw will somehow land on the ground right after he throws it? I'm trying to understand you, but you're not making sense.

Originally Posted by TokyoSeven

Cactus wins the discussion, that UMP doesn't even have a spring in it and it outranges systemas upgraded AEGs.

yup, im sorry i even tried. This dude's too good.

[Sportco]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Amos is right, Skladfin usually doesn't know what he's talking about anyway

barrel length has absolutely NOTHING to do with range, OR ACCURACY
It's meaningless. It has no bearing what so ever.
What matters is COMPRESSION, and QUALITY.

You can have a 650mm 6.08 G&P barrel in a gun with a full upgraded prometheus mechbox, and I guarantee you it won't shoot as nice as the same gun with a 247mm prometheus 6.03 barrel.

Case and point, my stock HFC beretta, with a barrel shorter than 160mm, could outrange, and was more accurate, than a stock TM VSR-10. It shot as well as some well upgraded AEG's

My TM VSR-10 has a 430mm barrel, it had the exact same upgrades as Amos' VSR-10 at the time, except he had a 650mm barrel and an extra 70fps on me. Guess what? We got the same accuracy, and he got about another 15 feet of range on me with that extra 70fps.

Barrel length means nothing in spring guns and AEG's.
Your BB never actually hits the side of the barrel, the compressive forces keep your BB centered down the length of the barrel. So the longer your barrel is, the more air you need to keep it centered, and the longer you NEED to keep it centered, the greater chance of something going wrong with the air current or with barrel defects or with dirt in the barrel.

Wow... short barrel are has precise has a long one... thhat is one HUGE affirmation....

1) The exit velocity is the result of lenght vs acceleration... the less lenght the more kick in the pants you need (to be at say 380 fps)... wish in turn results in more blow by, meanning more turbulence inside the barrl meanning a less stable bb at exit less precision....

2) Plus I'd be curious to see how that (over pressure) effects the hop up's hability to do it's work!!! Even with hard rubber the unit will be presurized

3) it would seem improbable at best that ((for a specific setup)) a shorter barrel would have the same precision long range then a short one...


Cheers,

Pete

[ThunderCactus]

How do the dynamics of baseball pitching factor into to airsoft in any way shape or form?
Sportco, your arguement does make sense. However proper compression also includes laminar airflow through the barrel. A stock 290fps HFC beretta can outrange, and has more accuracy than a stock 310fps CA M16, even though the barrel on the M16 is significantly longer.
The hard PROVEN fact, through experience in the field with shorter and longer barreled guns, through actual field testing, not through idle speculation and theory, is that you can get the same range and accuracy out of a shorter barrel than you can out of a longer one.

Where's Stalker when you need him?

[Skladfin]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

How do the dynamics of baseball pitching factor into to airsoft in any way shape or form?

You brought up stability, so I gave you an example of a projectile with little stability. And it still flies far. Your theory doesn't make sense in this real world application.

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Sportco, your arguement does make sense. However proper compression also includes laminar airflow through the barrel.

Okay, so you presented an idea. now explain it. How does Laminar airflow make the BB go farther? Explain the science behind that. As far as anyone can tell, that only helps with accuracy.

Systema and PDI made their 6.04 and 6.05 barrel to give Laminar airflow between the BB and barrel like you said. So you're idea is valid and true. However, both Systema and PDI presented it for ACCURACY, not range. In fact, PDI goes as far as saying 6.05 is only for Accuracy and 6.01 is for RANGE because it gives you more FPS.

Now explain your laminar airflow suggestion and how it gives you more range? Prove the maker of PTW and One of the highest quality upgrade parts manufacturer wrong for me. I would love to hear your suggestion.

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

The hard PROVEN fact, through experience in the field with shorter and longer barreled guns, through actual field testing, not through idle speculation and theory, is that you can get the same range and accuracy out of a shorter barrel than you can out of a longer one.

This, I agree 100% with.

[CDN_Stalker]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

How do the dynamics of baseball pitching factor into to airsoft in any way shape or form?
Sportco, your arguement does make sense. However proper compression also includes laminar airflow through the barrel. A stock 290fps HFC beretta can outrange, and has more accuracy than a stock 310fps CA M16, even though the barrel on the M16 is significantly longer.
The hard PROVEN fact, through experience in the field with shorter and longer barreled guns, through actual field testing, not through idle speculation and theory, is that you can get the same range and accuracy out of a shorter barrel than you can out of a longer one.

Where's Stalker when you need him?

Is that me? Lol, scanned over the entire thing, now I have to go back and actually READ! I did think about being a smartass and ask if I can get 300ft effective range out of a 0.30g BB leaving the barrel at about 250fps, but that's old.

[ThunderCactus]