Canadian airsoft case law
 

I thought some of you might find these interesting and informative...sorry if these links have been put up already...iv been away for almost 2 years...but I'm back! ;)

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlig...nlii11265.html

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlig...nlii53962.html

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlig...nlii11266.html

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlig...anlii2725.html

just a quick question

in order for it to be a replica it cant be a firearm, if i were to upgrade the spring then to bring the aeg up from the states, will they let it go being that its not a replica by defination???

please dont flame, i need honest answers, and yes i did read the faq's

this is quote from the first link

"Tribunal must determine if they meet the definition of “replica firearm” under subsection 84(1) of the Criminal Code. For the rifles in issue to meet this definition, each one must fulfil three conditions: (1) it must be designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, a firearm; (2) it must not itself be a firearm; and (3) it must not be designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, an antique firearm."

" The CBSA submitted that the rifles in issue are not firearms, since the projectiles that they discharge are unlikely to cause serious bodily injury or death to a person, as required by the definition of “firearm” pursuant to section 2 of the Criminal Code. The Tribunal agrees with the CBSA that, to be considered a firearm, an airsoft rifle must have a muzzle velocity that exceeds 124 metres (407 feet) per second. Because the rifles in issue have muzzle velocities that are below this threshold,[6] the Tribunal agrees with the CBSA that they are not firearms. Based on the definition of “firearm” found in section 2, the Tribunal is satisfied that the second condition of the definition of “replica firearm” is fulfilled, i.e. each rifle in issue itself is not a firearm."

Yes and no, it would not be considered a replica if it fires over 407 fps, it would be considered a firearm. But that mean you need to have a license to import firearms, and it is almost as difficult to do as import airsoft.

i thought also long as ur airsoft gun shoots below 500fps then its not a firearm of which requires all that hassle of registering and wouldnt need that importing license

or am just wrong on that one??

so by replica definition its a firearm, therefore not a replica but yet its firearm that doesnt need all that importing licence stuff

some how i have the feeling im missing a piece to the puzzle anyhow here a link to back up what i was just saying

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publicati...f5044-eng.html

If the muzzle velocity of a weapon is 152.4 metres (500 ft.) per second or less, the weapon may still, technically, be a firearm. However, owners of such weapons do not need a firearms licence, the weapons do not have to be registered, and owners do not need an authorization to transport such a weapon for importation purposes.

Those who enjoy caselaw might enjoy this thread:

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...t=cases+lawdog

particularly post 143

Ld

Read what you have posted, it'S say's (in the replica section) Replica that look like a real gun;Like a Airsoft gun are prohibited ! (not exactly the text)

Whatever anyone say, airsoft isn't legal to import !

yes but it doesnt fulfil all 3 conditions, according to canadian customs if it shoot fast enough to do serious harm (407fps) then its a firearm, not replica, according to custom, right???

please post concrete reasons here

Try this approach Acer. Read all the cases posted and list for us how many concluded an airsoftgun was a replica and how many decided that it was not.

Then, instead of getting everyone's non-trained legal opinion, you can actually predict what a court/tribunal is likely to do.

Ld

ur right the pattern was easily provable, but also every case had the pattern that it was shooting under 407fps

im saying if someone brought a gun that was shooting 450fps, and brought it up, customs couldnt legally prove it was a replica by definition that they gave in each court case,

just out of curiousity, has anyone tried bringing a airsoft gun that was shooting between 407 and 500fps??

REally, all the cases actually made reference to the velocity of the bb? I must have missed that :banghead:

The three part test mentions that velocity of the bb? I really am getting old :banghead:

Ld

yes they did, im going to refer to the first link
section 14 talks about the arguement that they use being that its a replica, and also mentions it must not be a firearm in itself
in secton 16 it talks about it not being a firearm

"to be considered a firearm, an airsoft rifle must have a muzzle velocity that exceeds 124 metres (407 feet) per second. Because the rifles in issue have muzzle velocities that are below this threshold, the Tribunal agrees with the CBSA that they are not firearms. Based on the definition of “firearm” found in section 2, the Tribunal is satisfied that the second condition of the definition of “replica firearm” is fulfilled, i.e. each rifle in issue itself is not a firearm."

EVEN if you can get it in thru the firearm way, you will have another problem. The length of firearm could be too short and considered as a restricted. Then there's the semi automatic ONLY, Finally there will be a list of banned firearm you must follow, which means AK, Mp5, G3 are out of option. Overall it would be quite troublesome, even after custom cause you cant get it fps down that easily.
I know what you thinking, I thought it awhile ago but its not a viable way. And PAL is HARD to get nowadays, and you have a criminal record, you cant get it.

Did not Peter Kang used to import AEGs factory upgraded to over 407fps so he could import them without problem?

edit: http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showpos...&postcount=326

Yes, but we apparently can't use it anymore for some reason. :?

Gaging from past cases and my "not a lawyer" understanding... The problem with that is that it must be designed with a muzzle velocity of over 407 fps. Any gun can be modified to fire over that. But it must be purpose built out of the box to fire at that rate before even being considered as valid in the velocity test.

That's my limited understanding, I could be wrong, but that's what I've got in my brain.

I'm not at all convinced that it is good for the future of airsoft if we get the classification of airsoft guns to be modified to firearm.

Ld

Well, considering then we'll probably be restricted to a 5 round mag and semi only, I'm inclined to agree.

People just fucking accept it:

YOU CAN'T PERSONALLY IMPORT AIRSOFT!

lol true, a lot of debate on this one,
has anyone one won a case from customs, caz that would be interesting to hear

That I am aware of, no one has won a hearing wrt AEGs or similar getting through customs.

Ld

i understand that. i think what many people are trying to grasp is whether or not we can CHANGE the law. i mean, i got a joke airsoft pistol for Xmas. yes it did have an orange tip, but paint that black, and it looks just like an M9 and yes it does shoot out (however pathetically) BBs. that being said, this is technically a replica, yet the person who bought it for me said they got it at the dollar store for $2. its stuff like this that confuses people.

Changing the lobby happens two ways:

1) you lobby and the government passes new laws:

2) you go to court and win one or more important cases

I'm not sure either is likely to happen, or in the case of 2) is economically viable.

Ld

Just a thought... but if game hosts were to have petitions at games across canada and if everyone signed them, the likelihood of airsoft being considered a sport and therefore making the rifles legal to import might be much easier to get done...

+1

easier said than done,
if someone has the petition to sign, everyone will help out and sign it

Right! I can get some help from people I know that have any sort of law knowhow to draft one up... also my mom works for a Senator in Ottawa and I can probably get her help aswell

Does anyone believe that a petition, not supported by a proper lobbying effort will produce a positive result?

Ld

Sure, why not? we can't make change by just sitting around and bitching about it to each other... action is needed! And at least a petition can raise the awareness of the issue.
Point is we should and need to try

....And the response to that is, attention in general is the last thing we need. Unless we have a solid plan, all public attention will do for us is get people on our case. Attention is not a good thing.

Then why don't we work on a "solid" plan?

Lawdog:
How complex is it to start the lobbying process? Is it something that could be done part-time by a few committed individuals?
Establishing the legality of Airsoft guns would undoubtedly be immensely beneficial to the sport...

If the game hosts started passing around petitions as well surely it would be beneficial...

oh god this is turning into another one of those threads

Because a feasible plan to change government policy is based on an atmosphere of pre-existing will or at least predisposition for change in our favour. That simply isn't there right now.

Either that, or like Lawdog said, someone could make a court case out of it. Someone rich and with a lot of free time, anyways.

You sound surprised. :rolleyes:

As has been discussed before I have lobbied provincially, federally and now internationally on behalf of various organizations.

Proper lobbying is time consuming and expensive, and having unco-ordinated efforts where everyone is not delivering exactly the right message in the same way can be a big problem. In one case I met with a minister who told me that a member of one of the orgs I represented had told him that we wanted X, when we really wanted Y. He basically told me to come back when we had our crap together, so we had to discpline the member and probably lost 6 months or so.

Lobbying also requires infrastructure. If your long term dream is to lobby for better treatment of airsoft (which is federal issue, a much more expensive and complicated place to lobby) you need a really good grassroots system in place. For instance I can walk into a meeting and say, "I represent OTLA an organization of 1100 lawyers with members in every riding in the province" when I lobby in Ontario (just as an example).

So, and this is my opinion only, that if someday (not tommorrow) you wanted change in this regard you should start with local and then provincial airsoft organizations with membership lists, properly registered, with lots of dues paying members and a good constitution etc and then you can think about funding a lobbying effort (I do fundraising now for lobbying, and let me tell you, it is NOT cheap to even get meetings). I am doing some projects provincially and our we are buying a bunch of tickets for the Liberal Heritage Dinner coming up, and the tickets are $800 a pop.

Until airsoft is a well organized sport (which may not be something people want), I think the idea of petitions, letters to politicians, lobbying etc is premature.

Ld

Thanks for the detailed response!
I think that proper Airsoft Organizations would be beneficial for all of us. I understand that some people wouldn't want to pay dues etc but surely we could come up with a tiered membership system to get around that.

I'm originally from Australia and unfortunately Airsoft guns ARE classified as firearms there... therefore they have a proper nation-wide organization that arranges imports of airsoft guns and also organizes the games. Perhaps the Canadian community could take a page out of their book?

http://www.airsoftaustralia.com

I certainly don't see any drwabacks to having properly organized 'clubs'... if some of the better known hosts got in and endorsed the idea then surely we could set something up...

It already has lol.

I've seen petitions go around before and I signed them thinking that it wouldn't hurt in the very very off chance it did actually amount to something, but LD is right. Organization of airsoft is the first step at any rate so that you don't have 50 people asking for different things. One voice is all that is needed and everyone has to be on board to ensure we don't compromise the integrity of our organization if we started one or add unnecessary questions that could work in the reverse and just cost us more in the long run. Having a paying membership to a National Organization would in some ways be looked at in a positive light because we aren't just a bunch of people saying we want AEG's to be allowed across the boarder but we are now investing our money into this and showing that we do have a vested interest into the continuation of this sport, not to mention if we did have a spokesman could help in getting the message across to others because as LD said it's not cheap to try and bring about change. We also need to be well prepared to deal with more public opinion on what we do in our game. I did like the ideas by that organization in the US that was posted on the boards by one of our members I would like to be apart of an organization similar to that if one were to happen in Canada. But until then watch and shoot. :D

Spend a few years in Canadian airsoft, learn what the situation is really like here first before trying to suggest a bunch of things.

Anyone that is trying to contribute to your sport should be considered an ally, so try to keep a civil tongue in your head.
It's not like I'm running around suggesting we all smuggle in guns from the states, I am familiar with the situation here.

If you really want to see how effective lobbying can be, do some research on the current gun lobby in Canada and see how effective they've been at getting laws to change to benefit the gun owner. Then consider how long they've been working on their lobby, their organization levels, then number of gun owners that can be potentially affected, and the amount of funding involved and already spent.

THEN compare that to the airsoft community, and ask yourself again, if this is a feasible venture.

I'm not saying its impossible, but its damn improbable right now.

That's a very good point. I guess it heavily depends on the public's attitude toward the situation. If a politician doesn't think that a lot of people are going to appreciate him / her doing something then they are not going to waste their time on it...

and there you have the crux of the problem.


the stereotypical nutshell response is...the soccer mom lobby is bigger than the airsoft lobby (and gun lobby combined for that matter).

Not 100% accurate by any means, but it gives some insight to the challenges facing ANYONE who has a hobby where gun-like objects are involved.

hmmm... working out ways to cast airsoft in a positive light with that sort of crowd is difficult.
Unless their kids are active in the sport they are likely to want to ban it outright.

Trying to portray airsoft as "training" wouldn't work either... they would ask "training for what?".

Interesting problem.

Clarification
 

No one has ever said that the Activity of shooting people with simulated weapons is not a legitimate "sport"

The Activity of "airsoft" using airsoft guns to shoot one another is exactly the same activity as paintball... its the same game.. and no one is questioning if the activity is "legitimate" it clearly is.

That is not an issue... anyone who is fixated on the whole "legitimizing the Sport" aspect of this is totaly missing the point and agitating to legitimize something that is already perceived as legitimate.. so it is wasted effort and illustrates a clear missunderstanding of the core issues.

No one is questioning your right to use legally possesed airsoft guns to shoot people who agree to be shot. Its not illegal therefore it is legitimate.

The ONLY issue is the legal restrictions on the transfer of replica firearms between individuals and the retailing of Airsoft guns to individuals in contravention of the laws precluding such transfer of replicas.

That is where any "lobby" effort has to be focused... and if you want to pitch in to common cause then your effort and money is best spent on the existing well organized and funded firearms lobby... if they are successful in getting the government to open the issue of firearms laws.. and crack open the law for changes.. we could reasonably piggy back changes to the replica laws on such changes.

So get a PAL, buy a Gun and get active in that community..its your best hope to help this community.

wow...i started something i think! lol <sigh>

Anyhow...i wanted to know what peoples experiences have been when trying to import guns from Asia, specifically, have you been harassed or charged by the local PD, or does customs just send you a "you ain't getting your gun" letter and thats the end of it?

Just make sure you curb your enthusiasm for airsoft (at least on some of the gun forums) a bit :) There are some in the shooting community that have a less than enthusiastic welcome for airsofters even if they are shooters...in fact its around the same enthusiasm that some airsofters have for tournament paintballers.

I apologize for stirring the pot some more, but the first few posts have me confused all over again...

It's stated several times that if something fires at more than 407fps, it is considered a firearm. I thought to meet the definition of a firearm, it needed both a velocity over 500fps AND a muzzle energy of 5.7 Joules.
It was my understanding that the 407fps lower limit was for defining replicas, not for defining firearms; ie, below 407fps is considered not high enough to cause significant bodily harm, ergo, it would be a replica if it meets the appearance definitions of a replica. However, if it is above 407fps, it is not yet considered a firearm.

I was under the impression that this gap was specifically to give exception to air rifles/pellet guns, and the existence of PAL rated airguns firing at or over 500fps, along with non-PAL airguns below 500fps in Canada correlates with this.

So then, are there air rifles in Canada firing below 407fps? If so, how do they avoid the replica definition? If an airsoft gun were purpose built from the manufacturer to fire between 407 and 500fps, what would it be considered?
(This shouldn't limit them to semi-auto/5 rounds because they aren't PAL classified firearms at >500fps and >5.7 Joules)

I'm basically wondering how air rifles avoid being considered replicas (notably all those CO2 NBBs), seeing as how they do look like firearms, but aren't.

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...807#post627807

Specifically, the part where me and MacGuyver are going back and forth.

I'd be interested to hear the answer to that too... I have a Umarex P99 that look almost as good as the real thing, it fires under 500fps ( around 399 if I remember correctly ) and it was bought legally without a license of any kind...

Actually, just read this: http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=51609

Say the words "I like guns" anywhere today and you'll be treated with all the respect kindness those accused of being witches were in the Dark Ages, heretics during the Inquisition and so on.

CBSA, RCMP, etc take all the items under dispute as to if they are guns or replicas and so to highest spot in the Hawaii and toss them into a volcano.

If they float above the magma they're OK to posses and are returned to the owner. If they sink and melt they were prohibited. Additional punishments may be assessed at that point also.

Make sense?

Ah, looks like I glossed over the Al Pacino part when I read HoJo's FAQ. Thanks Saint, that answers it about as well I expected anything could.