Upgrading a VFC VR16. Seigeteks?
 

So, I had a full build going was running great then the other day it decided to blow up on me so yeah. My build was SHS 12.1 gears, SHS aluminum piston with steel rack, Lonex anti-reversal latch, Stock Cylinder, Stock Nozzle, Ace 1 arms silent piston and cylinder heads, Tienly GT45000 motor, Tienly Pinion, AWS stealth fet, Gate warfet. Long story short stuff decided to stop meshing when I added the timely motor and the thing self destructed causing mass gear stripping, piston stripping, scored cylinder, stripped pinion etc... My stupidity. So my question now is what should I do for awesome trigger response should I consider a tougher gear seigeteks possibly? Are they worth the $175? Or stick with SHS 12.1's? Looking for ideas. I also have a chimera coming in the mail from BTC. Let me know your thoughts!

Did you correct AOE on that metal piston?

Probably why they stopped meshing if you didn't.

Switch to plastic or half metal teeth and shave off the teeth so you have proper engagement.

Measure twice cut once.

Blah blah blah...

Lol yeah after this happened i realized why people use the piston as the so called "fault point" Should have went plastic and will be going plastic for the build thinking sorbo as well.

Can you say without a shadow of doubt, that it was part failure and not installation error?
Because if the latter, you may want to re-visit using cheaper parts to nail down your workmanship/process before throwing money at problems.

Sounds like a generic case of user error rather than quality of parts.

You can't just stick 12:1 gears and a Tienly45k into a gun and expect it to be a drop in 50 RPS setup. You can stick a set of Siegetek 10:1s in there, you'd get 60 RPS and a stripped piston in 5 seconds if you have no idea what you're doing. In most cases, parts that are "good enough" in terms of quality are as good as the person installing them. If you have a set of Siegeteks, you can still break them through improper installation. I've seen it happen. Same with your piston, and it sounds like you've made a very poor piston choice for a high speed setup.

Here is a sample of a high speed build I did for a client, prices removed.

Base gun: VFC 416

BTC Spectre
Siegetek 10:1 Gear set and pinion
Tienly U30000 Long Motor
SHS 14T Ported Piston
Lonex M4 Cylinder Head
Sorbo and Neo pad combo
ZCI steel full cylinder
Lonex POM Piston Head
SHS M4 Nozzle
SHS V2 Tappet Plate
Ace1Arms M120 Spring
Modify Shim Set
Reinforced Steel Tappet Spring
Piston Head X-Ring

PDI 6.05 285mm barrel
Lonex M4 Hop Up Unit
R Hop Installation on PDI

-R-hop installation on PDI barrel
-Lonex hop up unit assembled, modified, nub installed
-hop up shims added
-hop up rubber modified
-mock bolt modified to prevent hop up interference

-pinion installed
-sector gear short stroked
-piston rack glued in
-sorbo installed, AoE adjusted
-piston head thread locked into piston
-all air seal surfaces lubricated with silicone lubricant
-gears lubricated with PTFE grease
-BTC Spectre installed, selector shimmed, trigger pull shortened
-gears shimmed bevel-pinion
-tappet plate modified for better air seal
-anti-reversal latch modified for Siegetek gear set
-nozzle cut to length

See thats what I'm considering too in all honesty I'm not ashamed to say it I believe it was 1. My shimming job. 2. Parts not meshing mainly contact due to the shimming job but also the Tienly pinion not liking the SHS bevel. 3. AOE which was my fault. So my question is what should I try parts wise I'm more than happy with SHS gears so maybe I should try them again but bushings or bearings etc.. Brands to try etc.. Also i should mention this happened at about 45rps I did a quick burst and big failure.

Also I was running a lonex anti reversal latch that I believe killed the bevel as well.

Pesto in all honesty your builds are incredible I'm very much aspiring to get to the level of excellence and craftsmanship you have. So I'm glad we've established my user error I'm not ashamed to admit that I literally started Teching last year. So maybe you guys could give me some pointers or methods you use to shim/correct angle of engagement like. Do you shim bevel to pinion what gear should i shim first should I use bearings or bushings? How many teeth can you safely remove on a piston to correct AOE etc...

Use a lighter piston. There is absolutely no need for an aluminum bodied piston. SHS 14T 7 hole piston is the best general purpose piston. Use a lighter piston head, a POM one such as Prometheus or Lonex. Avoid metal ones, avoid mushroom style "silent" ones. AoE is good, but it is not critical. I've never seen an AoE related failure aside from it being over "corrected", so that is likely not your cause of failure.

Your setup likely failed due to piston pre-engagement, which is caused by feeding issues. Use a pie shaped sector delayer with the SHS gear set, and short stroke from the release side to prevent tappet plate pre-engagement. 2 teeth if you are sub 40 RPS, 3 teeth if you are above 40 RPS.

As far as shimming goes, shim bevel-pinion. Do not use the internet guides that tell you to start from the spur gear, also avoid the guides that instruct you to shim using the top (right) half of the gearbox. That will result in the bevel gear being shimmed too far away from the pinion.

When you shim, make sure every gear is as tight as possible without inducing friction. That means you should be able to wiggle each gear shaft slightly, ideally <0.1mm. As far as spacing between the gears, sector-spur doesn't matter a whole lot, those only strip from piston pre-engagement and if you have D-Boys guns lol. Give a good amount of contact, but leave enough clearance to be 100% sure they are not rubbing. People often shim them as tightly as possible and the result is not pretty. Bevel-spur spacing is important. If you shim too far away, the bevel is more likely to strip.

Thanks so much now one issue i noticed with my last set up is there were lots of shims up top is there such thing as using to many shims without inducing friction?

Yes, if the column of shims is what is supporting your gear shaft rather than the bushing then you have issues.

And yes, you should use bushings.

Ok wicked I really appreciate your help guys gotta order some parts now!!

GT45K is a speed motor. Using it with 13:1s or other lower ratio gears is like using a formula 1 racing engine in a tractor pull.

It's well beyond it's rated torque load and now you're just trading exponential amounts of amperage to get minimal gains.
GT30k with 10:1 is going to be much more efficient, and won't risk melting anything.

According to you what would be the appropriate gear ratio for a 45k then?

slower gears.

The motor will work with those gears but it's a high power consumption motor on a set of gears that requires more torque to efficiently turn them. That setup is likely going to draw 26-30 amps on a constant if pulling 10:1s probably 24-26 on 12:1s. Burst draw is probably closer to 100 amps, so the likelihood you kill battery packs will be higher. A better motor to use in a low ratio gear set would be a shs torque or zci torque motor. A zci will draw closer to 15-16 amps and you can run it on a stick lipo if you are space restricted... though I like bigger batteries for larger margin of safety. What you give up in top end speed in full auto you retain in your semi cycle speed. It will complete the first cycle much faster and much more efficiently.

Like 22:1 or 25:1
The faster a motor is, the lower its torque rating is. You can increase the torque rating with stronger magnets, ultimately theres a peak torque before you have to make the motor physically larger.
Pesto has paired a 45k with 12:1s (i think) before for shits and giggles and he was pulling something retarded like 75A.
The torque band of a motor is the range in which it runs efficiently at top speed. On industrial motors, its where they have 100% duty cycle. Ive put a 3hp motor on a 5hp application before, gets to max speed and everything, but had high draw and overheated like a bastard.

The motor will draw as much amperage as it can to get up to its maximum speed, it'll either reach the max possible draw of the battery and run slow, reach max speed and run super hot, or vaporize a winding.

Its not as easy as just pairing any motor with any gears and any spring. Its a balancing act.

Ok heres the thing I'm in the market for new batteries so im cool with making this system function correctly so what battery should I use also, I ran a SHS high torque for months and it was heating up now I've transfered this motor into multiple guns and every gun it heated up in. I dont know if its a bad motor but wverything I tried it kept heating up. My tienly runs a lot more cooler so should I consider a Tienly 35k or 30k? Also battery what should I do I don't mind running a battery bag if I must.

How would you balance my act? 12.1s with a 30-35k motor or a different gear set for my current motor? Also what size battery should I run? I would like to thank everyone on this thread for the help as well!!

Also is there a specific wiring I should use? I am currently using this http://www.airsoftstore.ca/index.php...products_id=69

12:1s with a 30k
with a 400-420fps spring you should be around the 22A draw range, so nothing less than a turnigy nanotech 1200mah 25-50C battery
And the thickest gauge wire you can possibly stuff into the gun.

Remember, you're getting into high performance. The faster the gun shoots, the faster it's going to work through its life cycle and break down.

Compromise is also important. You COULD build a 75rps setup that breaks down every time you field it, or you could build a 40rps setup that lasts forever with proper maintenance.

The reason some of the old guys rant and rave about how amazing stock marui guns is because they almost never break down. But the reason they almost never break down is because their performance is so scaled back. 300fps at 14rps; hard to break anything when there's no load on the parts lol

Very true now this gun will be shooting around 350 fps for my local indoor field. 12.1's with a 30K motor should I still be short stroking the sector? and also I will be running a 11.1v Lipo as thats the usual voltage I run.

Should get you 40-42rps easily enough.
Short stroke 2 teeth and you should be golden. Make sure you don't have that pesky 2nd tooth on the piston, either.

Wicked thank you guys so much

heat in a motor can also be a sign of insufficient amps reaching the motor. If you are trying to use stick lipos that have ratings like 15C 1000mah that have unmarked or low burst ratings, it's likely the motor isn't getting enough amps.

More C and mah, like 30-40C and at least 2000mah. On an m4 that will force you into a brick battery and external battery bag.

ZCI motors are under 40 bucks, I don't see why you'd buy a whole new gear set or batteries to accommodate a motor.

this thread makes me wanna sell my Tienly GT45000 haha.

Starting to question why I bought one lol I waited for them to be in stock meanwhile I stared at the 30k and 35k going nawh just wait for the 45k lol Now i regret my decision.

I thought Tienly45s were cool when I built everything at 45+ RPS. my main gun at one point was 60 RPS on 11.1. They are cool when you want to push the RPS numbers, but aside from that they are not practical. Most people just buy them because higher number means better quloty right?

For sure, well looks like I've learnt my lesson now .

So 13:1 SHS + Tienly GT45000 is complete overkill if aiming for 40-45 RPS.
Damn, fell for the numbers game once again.
What happens if I kept my 18:1 stock gears with the tienly ? Is there anyway to salvage this without buying a new motor ? TBH I have a SHS high torque it in right now and I have a BTC Spectre that I'm about to put in. I've already been told to SS the gear set by three teeth.

In sum: aiming for 40-45 RPS at 380-400 fps.
I have in my possession: Pretty much all modify internals (including aluminum piston head and quantum piston), ASC sorbo pads, SHS HT motor, Tienly GT45000, Stock VFC gears (18:1?), SHS 13:1 gears and BTC Spectre. All powered by a Turnigy 11.1v 15-25c 2000mah battery

tienly 30k on 12:1s will give you 42rps
tienly 30k on 13:1s will give you closer to 36rps (since they're evidently 13.78:1)

If the vfc gears are 18:1'ish, it should yield similar rps with the 45000rpm motor as a 30000 & 12:1's (not calculating spring loads, just motor speeds and gear ratio)

What voltage does tienly calculate/label their motor speeds for? 8.4v like tm I believe? Or higher like 12v?

12.6v, which is an 11.1 lipo

probably still draw about 20-24 amps with huge startup amperage spikes. stock draw on 18:1s and vfc motor is about 16-18. Will likely go through a battery every 8 midcaps or so.

I had a lonex a1 build which drew about 20 amps that would need a new battery after about 1500 rounds. Stats on the battery are 11v 25-50C 1600mah. Drain was also such that after about half a season 2 of my 4 packs of the same stats god slightly puffy, and more use caused the packs to not be able to hold output voltage/amperage at a constant draw. They would dip severely.

I put in a zci torque motor and now the same gear set lasts about 4000 rounds or so on 1 battery, no puffyness on the 1 pack that saw use every weekend this year from may to mid august.

setup is 13:1 running on a cheetah 2n triggermaster and aforementioned zci torque.

The top speed in full auto is suffering but the semi feels exactly the same as it did with the lonex, and to me that's all that matters. Top speed is still close to 30rps on a full battery. I think the a1 got 32-34rps when I cared. Motor doesn't get nearly as hot either with extended fire fights.

So from what I understand with my rudimentary knowledge in electronics:

My current battery (Turnigy 11.1v 15-25c 2000mah battery) can handle 30 amps.
I read somewhere that the Tienly GT45k draws 30-45 amps (AirsoftGI review of the motor).
Pesto has a thread in which he tested the motor, and it drew 45 amps. However, he was running 10:1 Siegeteks in it and a rewired Spectre (I have no knowledge in rewiring a Spectre) Link: http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=174582

In sum, I think I have two options:
1.) Either completely rewire my gun with adequate wiring along with a significantly larger battery to handle the amperage. something with way higher constant C and mAh.
2.) Cut my losses and sell the Tienly 45K and get a Tienly 30k instead to work with my 13:1 gears.

I'm considering getting the Tienly 30k and ditching the idea of the 45k or finding a purpose somewhere for it. Maybe in a stock VFC gun but still with the battery you'd need to run the thing its not worth it especially the fact you might run through battery packs at a constant draw. So difficult to figure out what to do.

That's what I'm considering doing, which is such a shame :(.

tienly 30k on 13:1s, piston short stroked by 2, and a 430fps spring draws 20A i think
On the 16:1s it draws 18A

Honestly, just use the SHS HT motor. Retrue the commutator, break the brushes in. When I build guns for clients, if they opt for SHS gears, I tell them to go with the SHS motor over a Tienly. Yes the Tienly is better made, but the SHS pinion meshes with it much better than the Tienly pinion.

The only time I tell a client to go for a Tienly is when they are using Siegetek gears paired with a Siegetek pinion.

Hey guys, SO I finished the build its incredible sounds very quite perfect shimming and I short stroked 2 teeth. I'm currently using a SHS high torque and Airsoft Depot sent me the wrong gears but I used them because I figured they would be more reliable they are SHS 13.1 instead of 12.1. Now with my short stroking I have a low fps which is expected I'm using a m90 spring before I was getting 350fps now i'm getting 280fps my compression is good however I was wondering what spring I should use and also what modifications I could make to my tappet plate for a better air seal? Also I have ordered an Hunter seeker R-hop kit with the nubs and IR patches I was wondering when i run out of patches what Silicone hose I should use and where to buy it here in Ontario.
Thanks, Jordan!

M110 spring. You should only have lost 30fps from short stroking by 2 teeth

And you don't "run out" of patches, it comes in a pack of 3 so you can either do 3 Rhops, or fuck it up twice. Once installed, it should last a few years.

I plan on doing multiple guns and paying $20 for three patches is quite expensive lol.

Any idea on modding my tappet plate people say sanding the front others say sand the tail is there a balance? also If i was to remove from the tail how much?

Well that all depends on whether the tail or the front is preventing it from moving all the way forward.
If you sand off the front, but the tail is holding it back because it's resting on the gear shaft, you haven't really changed anything.